Stereo Outputs metering in the red but volume is low

I'm a Pro Tools user mixing a project in Logic. It seems that my stereo mix has little headroom before it goes into the red. I mean, I can have my mix in the red and it still isn't up to volume when I check it against other mastered material. In Pro Tools I don't have this problem, if my overall output is at O I'm actually at 0 or close enough. If I want to send the mastering guy a -3db mix I can dial that in. What am I missing in Logic to be able to meter this way. I'm guessing it's a preference somewhere? I'm using a bombfactory meter set to peak in Pro Tools. I've been using the meter plugin in Logic, is this wrong?

 

 

Macbook Pro, OSX 10.6.4, 2.8GHZ Inter Core Duo, 4GB RAM, Logic 9.1.1, Lacie SATA 1 TB 7200 RPM HD, Apogee Ensemble

I'm a Pro Tools user mixing a project in Logic. It seems that my stereo mix has little headroom before it goes into the red. I mean, I can have my mix in the red and it still isn't up to volume when I check it against other mastered material.

 

"other mastered material"... so you mix is already mastered? Otherwise if your stuff is not mastered already, you're obviously comparing apples and oranges.

What I'm saying is that it's not up to comparable volume yet it is still metering in the red. I normally put a limiter on the final bus to get enough volume so the client doesn't have to turn it up twice as loud as everything else in his cd player to get the same volume. This is a common practice in my experience. So my question is... why does my meter go into the red when it's still at half the volume of what it will eventually be? I feel like the meters aren't telling the whole truth. I'm actually asking a very practical question.

Meters are never telling the whole truth. The perception of volume is a very complex thing, that goes far beyond the level of an analog or digital signal, especially the peak level the meters you're using display. The meters are, however, telling one side of the truth: at what level your digital signal is peaking. If they're almost in the red, that level is 0 dB FS. But two mixes clipping at 0 dB FS don't necessary have the same perceived volume - that's where mastering comes into the equation.

 

Now I don't know exactly how much of a difference you hear between the volume of your song and the volume of mastered songs, so it's hard to tell if that's what you're hearing or if there's something else going on. But even with nothing else going on, some difference in volume is to be expected.

 

Then, if you have something else going on, it's outside of Logic. Logic cannot meter one thing and play another. It's really transparent that way.

 

What I would do is bring one of those mastered songs you're comparing to into an empty logic project, on an audio track, no plug-ins, nothing, and see how loud that sound? Compare that to your audio track? Again, some difference in volume is to be expected, obviously.

But this is going into the red before I ever have any compression or limiting on the final output. Where in pro tools I would be measuring at like -15 in logic I'm metering at or above 0. I certainly understand the difference between mixing and mastering, this is not an issue of me not knowing what I'm doing. It is an issue of me not understanding my meters in logic.

 

If it makes the discussion easier. Let's say I'm mastering a song in logic. My waveform is not square but my meters are in the red before I ever add limiting.

 

Does logic just have that much less headroom than pro tools?

But this is going into the red before I ever have any compression or limiting on the final output. Where in pro tools I would be measuring at like -15 in logic I'm metering at or above 0. I certainly understand the difference between mixing and mastering, this is not an issue of me not knowing what I'm doing. It is an issue of me not understanding my meters in logic.

 

If it makes the discussion easier. Let's say I'm mastering a song in logic. My waveform is not square but my meters are in the red before I ever add limiting.

 

Does logic just have that much less headroom than pro tools?

 

 

Actually I don't know exactly what your problem here is, since it is totally normal that your mix sounds way softer in levels the commercial releases (since they were mixed by pros on millions worth of gear AND mastered after).

As far as I know there is no such a preference in Logic that would give you more headroom and as far as I know there is no extra headroom you can get in ProTools that you can't in Logic. Here I will post you a pic of my Logic demo song which I did just for fun sake but the point is that, it sounds identical, meters show identical display and wave form is identical which implies that it's up to you how you make it sound. I guess that after a few months of using Logic you'll be able to make your music sound as good and as loud as in ProTools.

If anyone out there understands my question and is not interested in being condescending, please respond. I am a professional producer and mixer with a simple question. I'm interested in possibly moving my operation over to logic so I want to understand more. The problem is not that my mixes aren't loud enough or that they are distorting. They actually sound good. I just want to know where I am in relation to zero when I send it to master. If I send my mastering guy a mix that's +5 like my meters are showing I'm going to have issues. I'm not talking about the little meters beside my faders either. I'm talking about plugins that I assume are supposed to give me the information I seek.

I'm not talking about the little meters beside my faders either. I'm talking about plugins that I assume are supposed to give me the information I seek.

 

jarmstreet, I'm just trying to help, not trying to be condescending. It's difficult knowing what's going on on your machine just from descriptions on a forum, and it's difficult to know to what level of knowledge I'm talking. Having said that I'm not sure I understand. What plug-ins are you referring to? What is the information you seek exactly?

If anyone out there understands my question and is not interested in being condescending, please respond. I am a professional producer and mixer with a simple question. I'm interested in possibly moving my operation over to logic so I want to understand more. The problem is not that my mixes aren't loud enough or that they are distorting. They actually sound good. I just want to know where I am in relation to zero when I send it to master. If I send my mastering guy a mix that's +5 like my meters are showing I'm going to have issues. I'm not talking about the little meters beside my faders either. I'm talking about plugins that I assume are supposed to give me the information I seek.

 

I don't want to get into the 'loudness' perception discussion.

 

I can get my mixes louder or quieter than commercial recordings before mastering although the meters may read the same on both recordings.

 

I usually come out of Logic and adjust my level at the input of a DAT recorder. I rely on the external meter (DAT) for consistency. I don't rely on the meters in Logic.

 

So take your good sounding mix out of Logic and boost it with some other device.

I usually come out of Logic and adjust my level at the input of a DAT recorder. I rely on the external meter (DAT) for consistency. I don't rely on the meters in Logic.

 

So take your good sounding mix out of Logic and boost it with some other device.

 

 

I have absolutely no idea why you'd want to do that. I have never seen anyone do that, ever. If that's a workflow that works for you, by all means, use it, but as to recommending it to someone else, I'm not sure why exactly.

I usually come out of Logic and adjust my level at the input of a DAT recorder. I rely on the external meter (DAT) for consistency. I don't rely on the meters in Logic.

 

So take your good sounding mix out of Logic and boost it with some other device.

 

 

I have absolutely no idea why you'd want to do that. I have never seen anyone do that, ever. If that's a workflow that works for you, by all means, use it, but as to recommending it to someone else, I'm not sure why exactly.

 

Well David, here is why...

 

I really love the digital world and I can record many tracks and put all type of effects and mix and master with the latest and greatest software. What I did neglect to mention is that my signal passes through the analog world (via a mixer, tape machine, etc) where I can hang a pair of balls on it before sending it back into the digital world.

 

Logic would distort before I could get that kind of level. The other method would be to mix in Logic and bounce it out between -3dB and 0dB (hopefully with no 'distortion' and bring it back into Logic to squeeze the rest of the headroom out of the mix.

I usually come out of Logic and adjust my level at the input of a DAT recorder. I rely on the external meter (DAT) for consistency. I don't rely on the meters in Logic.

 

So take your good sounding mix out of Logic and boost it with some other device.

 

 

I have absolutely no idea why you'd want to do that. I have never seen anyone do that, ever. If that's a workflow that works for you, by all means, use it, but as to recommending it to someone else, I'm not sure why exactly.

 

Well David, here is why...

 

I really love the digital world and I can record many tracks and put all type of effects and mix and master with the latest and greatest software. What I did neglect to mention is that my signal passes through the analog world (via a mixer, tape machine, etc) where I can hang a pair of balls on it before sending it back into the digital world.

 

Logic would distort before I could get that kind of level. The other method would be to mix in Logic and bounce it out between -3dB and 0dB (hopefully with no 'distortion' and bring it back into Logic to squeeze the rest of the headroom out of the mix.

 

Wait...you mean like analog summing engine ? That's what I saw these guys from my studio are doing. They record in Logic (or Nuendo or ProTools) than they mix through the huge ass analog mixer and bounce it back to computer.

If they don't use a big mixing board they use SSL analog summing engine to get their tracks, stems or whatever they want through analog gear and gain some nuances in sound before they print them to any media.

Now shivermetimbers, why do YOU do that ? To get louder mix or to get some analog touch to it (some warmth and punch) ?

 

jarmstreet...I don't know why you think anyone is patronizing towards you.

You asked "where I am in relation to zero when I send it to master" ...well, good question, what your StereoOut meter says ?

jarmstreet,

 

If the last plugin meter or the Stereo Out channel strip meter reads +5 dB and you want to send -3 dB peak to mastering, lower the Stereo Out channel strip fader from 0.0 dB to -8.0 dB. It's OK...you can lower it and it won't affect the quality of the sound.

 

You probably just mixed a little hot as you went and your final level got higher as the mix progressed.

jarmstreet,

 

If the last plugin meter or the Stereo Out channel strip meter reads +5 dB and you want to send -3 dB peak to mastering, lower the Stereo Out channel strip fader from 0.0 dB to -8.0 dB. It's OK...you can lower it and it won't affect the quality of the sound.

 

You probably just mixed a little hot as you went and your final level got higher as the mix progressed.

 

Yes, and than he will be -8dB FS in relation to zero. That was what I just said. Almost

Yes, and than he will be -8dB FS in relation to zero.

 

No, he will be at -3 dB FS, as redlogic stated: +5 -8 = -3

 

What I did neglect to mention[/color] is that my signal passes through the analog world (via a mixer, tape machine, etc) where I can hang a pair of balls on it before sending it back into the digital world.

 

Logic would distort before I could get that kind of level. The other method would be to mix in Logic and bounce it out between -3dB and 0dB (hopefully with no 'distortion' and bring it back into Logic to squeeze the rest of the headroom out of the mix.

 

OK now I'm following you. IMO both the processes you describe are part of mastering, sorta, but who cares. Some people like to have an idea how the master will sound as they're mixing, I understand that.

 

I'm under the impression jarmstreet understands all that but somehow feels like he doesn't get the same level out of Logic (when the song is peaking close to 0 dB FS) as he could get out of Pro Tools (when the song is peaking close to 0 dB FS) - and that to me does not make sense unless there's a volume control on his audio interface that is turned down for Logic's output or something - I mean maybe on one of those audio interface's software mixer where it's easy to get confused.

 

But jarmstreet, I'd like to understand what plug-in you were mentioning earlier and where it is inserted, and whether or not it's giving you the same readings as the Stereo Out meter (on the channel strip)?

Yes, and than he will be -8dB FS in relation to zero. That was what I just said. Almost

Not quite.

The Stereo Out fader would be at -8.0, but the meter should read -3.0.

So, the resulting Bounce would peak at -3.0 dBFS.

+5 - 8 = -3

 

Edit: David beat me to it.

Edited December 24, 2010 by redlogic

Yes, and than he will be -8dB FS in relation to zero.

 

No, he will be at -3 dB FS, as redlogic stated: +5 -8 = -3

 

 

"If the last plugin meter or the Stereo Out channel strip meter reads +5 dB and you want to send -3 dB peak to mastering, lower the Stereo Out channel strip fader from 0.0 dB to -8.0 dB"

 

From ... 0.0dB to -8.0dB...it should be -8 (from 0 to -8 = -8dBs)

Logicno8, you're confusing gain and level. The gain goes from 0 dB to -8 dB. The level goes from +5 dB FS to -3 dB FS.

From ... 0.0dB to -8.0dB...it should be -8 (from 0 to -8 = -8dBs)

I think you're confusing what the fader reads and what the meter reads.

The meter is what is important.

 

Edit: David wins again!

Forum Pharte Edited December 24, 2010 by redlogic

I'm under the impression jarmstreet understands all that but somehow feels like he doesn't get the same level out of Logic (when the song is peaking close to 0 dB FS) as he could get out of Pro Tools (when the song is peaking close to 0 dB FS) - and that to me does not make sense unless there's a volume control on his audio interface that is turned down for Logic's output or something - I mean maybe on one of those audio interface's software mixer where it's easy to get confused.

 

I don't get it either, but I don't have or use PT. Now that PT9 will run on any interface, I may try it. However, I do not want to waste my money.

 

I suppose the best way to settle this would be to drag a prerecorded sound source into both PT and Logic. Play them both back (no plug ins) through the interface and into an external meter (i.e. DAT, Mixer, tape machine, etc ... ). An impartial meter will reveal the truth.

Logicno8, you're confusing gain and level. The gain goes from 0 dB to -8 dB. The level goes from +5 dB FS to -3 dB FS.

 

Yeah, I got it eventually. If he is +5dB's in red he needs to pull his fader down for 5dB's to get just before clipping (around 0dB's) and than to pull the fader down for additional 3dB's to get it around -3dB's in peak. All together he pulled his fader -8dB's down. Clear.

Thanks everyone for sticking this out with me. Sorry I got a bit testy. There are just a lot of things I love about Logic but I've always found the transition frustrating for whatever reason. I had to force myself to mix this project in Logic because I'm tired of putting it off.

 

David, you're right...

 

"doesn't get the same level out of Logic (when the song is peaking close to 0 dB FS) as he could get out of Pro Tools (when the song is peaking close to 0 dB FS)"... and I would add that in order to peak close to 0 in Pro Tools I have to do heavy limiting or compression, whereas I do no limiting and little compression in Logic and I'm metering above 0

 

this is why I feel like its a setting or preference or something. I'm interfacing with an apogee ensemble, the main out going into my central station is at full volume. In logic I'm using the Level plugin under Metering (I think)... in pro tools I believe the plugin is a bombfactory master meter. They seem to do the same thing... but the only time my meter in pro tools gets even above -10 is when I'm slamming it with a limiter... never from just mixing hot.

 

And yes I do mix hot. I usually only leave my mastering guy a couple db of headroom, I guess I'm a control freak that way. I know a lot of really good mixers that do the same thing and yes I know all the technical reasons I shouldn't do that, so save your breath

 

I will say that my Pro Tools rig is HD, maybe that makes some difference, but it shouldn't change the game that much, right? Also, I do sum analog sometimes and can assure you that's not the answer here, in fact it likely makes my problem worse. Luckily for this mix I'm completely "in the box" with a few nice Waves plugs.

could it have anything to do with the db-linear/exponential scale setting in the display preferences? I remember when I first switched from Pro Tools the levels were reading way lower out of my 002 until I found the level meter setting.

And yes I do mix hot. I usually only leave my mastering guy a couple db of headroom, I guess I'm a control freak that way. I know a lot of really good mixers that do the same thing and yes I know all the technical reasons I shouldn't do that, so save your breath

How you mix is your choice. Heck we haven't even talked about genre. If you're doing classical music I might be inclined to suggest not mixing like that, but if you're doing top 40 hip hop, it probably makes sense. Anyway, your choice, not an issue here.

 

I would add that in order to peak close to 0 in Pro Tools I have to do heavy limiting or compression, whereas I do no limiting and little compression in Logic and I'm metering above 0

 

Well maybe the heavy limiting and compression in Pro Tools are the reason it sounds much louder. Metering above 0 in Logic only means you're clipping the signal, but the output can't be more than 0 dB FS anyway, so if it's clipped in Logic vs compressed/limited in Pro Tools, that may account for the volume difference.

 

this is why I feel like its a setting or preference or something. I'm interfacing with an apogee ensemble, the main out going into my central station is at full volume.

 

That's why the best way to compare is to bring your Pro Tools mix in Logic, on a track, and compare it with your Logic project.

 

Also, are you using different audio interfaces for Pro Tools and for Logic?

Wow 11 years ago. The right answer to the question is: jarmstreet was using a vu meter to track. Logic meter is dbfs which, as someone stated, cannot be fully trusted. Did I win something?

Wow 11 years ago. The right answer to the question is: jarmstreet was using a vu meter to track. Logic meter is dbfs which, as someone stated, cannot be fully trusted. Did I win something?

Congratulations, you just won the Necro Post Award!! Welcome amongst us and thanks for your answer.

 

Congratulations, you just won the Necro Post Award!! Welcome amongst us and thanks for your answer.

 

necrop10.jpg

thank you! I'm honoured lol

Actually I think I may have to take back that award. I think some people have necroposted in some older threads before. But in any case, it's good to see someone join in to post some useful info, I don't care how old the thread is. Lots of people end up reading these threads because they pop up in search results, so .... good information is good information. Thanks!