ralphonz Posted October 27, 2021 Share Posted October 27, 2021 Hi Folks, I had an issue with a project where the automation seemed to be completely out of time. The project in question is in the final stages of mixing so has a lot of plugins (and therefore latency). All of the automation was being triggered early, making it as good as useless. So I decided to do the following test and would like to know if anyone else gets the same results because it seems too buggy to be true. First Let's check some settings - Sample Accurate Automation is set to Volume, Pans, Sends, Plug-in Parameters. Automation snap offset and ramp time set to 0 Delay compensation is set to All Now for the test: Create a new empty project Create an audio track and drag some audio in. Add a gain plugin with the gain set to -80dB or something really low. Automate the gain bypass as in the screenshot below. I have it activating every other beat for a few bars. Press play and hear that your gain plugin switches on and off in time with the metronome. Add say 5-6 linear EQ's to this track to create a substantial amount of latency. playback and hear that the bypasses are now out of time. Just to be sure, send this audio track to a bus Create a new audio track and set the input to the bus you just created. Arm the track. Record the output of the bus to the new track The loud parts of the wave from on the newly recorded track should line up with where the gain plugin is bypassed but they're a head, by quite a bit! Remove the linear phase EQ's from the first track and record again. This time the waveform lines up more closely but still not perfectly. Surely, this is anything but sample-accurate automation? Also, make finishing a mix at a professional level almost impossible? Please let me know if I'm missing something! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ralphonz Posted October 27, 2021 Author Share Posted October 27, 2021 I will add that things appear to be in time when scrubbing the playhead but not on actual playback. I meant to post this in "New Feature Suggestions, Bug Reports", sorry! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ralphonz Posted October 28, 2021 Author Share Posted October 28, 2021 Bump! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunbrother Posted October 28, 2021 Share Posted October 28, 2021 I believe Logic's stock Gain plugin doesn't compensate for automation correctly. Try using a different plugin for the gain automation. Anything with an output knob that goes down to 0 should work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ralphonz Posted October 30, 2021 Author Share Posted October 30, 2021 I believe Logic's stock Gain plugin doesn't compensate for automation correctly. Try using a different plugin for the gain automation. Anything with an output knob that goes down to 0 should work. I'll give it a go with something else. I had originally noticed the issue when using vertigo VSM-3 from plugin alliance and sound toys Filter freak. I was muting the bypass on these plugins (logic's bypass not the one built into the plugin alliance VSM). Then I also noticed the send mutes on the channel strip not muting at the right times too, so after much frustration I devised this test and got this issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ralphonz Posted October 31, 2021 Author Share Posted October 31, 2021 I believe Logic's stock Gain plugin doesn't compensate for automation correctly. Try using a different plugin for the gain automation. Anything with an output knob that goes down to 0 should work. Thanks for this info sunbrother. I've run the exact same test but this time automating a Channel EQ with the gain control set to -24dB. Again, the bypasses happen super early - see the attached screenshot. It'd be great if someone else could verify this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ralphonz Posted October 31, 2021 Author Share Posted October 31, 2021 I can confirm this happens with ANY plugin. I've tried the stock compressor as well as few 3rd party plugins from plugin alliance. All the results are the same - that is the automation happens early, by an amount that is somehow related to the latency of existing plugins (in the example four linear EQ's) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunbrother Posted October 31, 2021 Share Posted October 31, 2021 I followed your steps on Logic Pro 10.6.3 and it works fine here. Apparently the info I read about the Gain plugin not working properly was out-of-date. Whether I used Logic's Linear EQ + Gain or 3rd party plugins, the automation played back correctly and was rendered correctly. Perhaps you can roll back to 10.6.3 and see if that fixes it? In case it's a regression in 10.7 or something like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ralphonz Posted October 31, 2021 Author Share Posted October 31, 2021 Thanks for testing that for me! Yes, I think I'd have noticed if this was happening in 10.6.3, and I never noticed until I updated so my suspicion is that it's something that's been introduced in 10.7 Any ideas on how to roll back? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunbrother Posted October 31, 2021 Share Posted October 31, 2021 There's no official way to do it, as far as I know. Either restore it from a backup or have someone send it to you. If rolling back to 10.6.3 fixes it you should send a Feedback Form to Apple so they know. https://www.apple.com/feedback/logic-pro.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ralphonz Posted November 3, 2021 Author Share Posted November 3, 2021 I just tested this with a new file on a different machine using 10.6.3 and my automation is still off. You can see two takes in this screenshot. Take 1 was recorded before the Linear Phase EQ's were added to the first track, and shows the automation happening perfectly in time. Take 2 was recorded after adding the linear phase EQ's to induce latency, as you can see, it does not line up... The plot thickens. I cannot understand how you (@sunbrother) were not able to duplicate this! I know this is not hardware related as this second test was conducted on a completely different machine (macBook pro 2015) using only the built-in audio. I've included a screenshot of my preferences (Audio->General) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ralphonz Posted November 3, 2021 Author Share Posted November 3, 2021 I followed your steps on Logic Pro 10.6.3 and it works fine here. Apparently the info I read about the Gain plugin not working properly was out-of-date. Whether I used Logic's Linear EQ + Gain or 3rd party plugins, the automation played back correctly and was rendered correctly. Perhaps you can roll back to 10.6.3 and see if that fixes it? In case it's a regression in 10.7 or something like that. Screen Shot 2021-10-31 at 9.47.05 AM.png I have just noticed that in this example you are automating the gain, and not the bypass. It's automating the bypass that I've been testing with here, not a plugin parameter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ralphonz Posted November 3, 2021 Author Share Posted November 3, 2021 Automating the "gain parameter" of this channel EQ does work properly(take 3 in the screenshot below). However, automating the bypass does not (take 2 which is mysteriously ahead of time). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evil_cliff Posted January 14, 2022 Share Posted January 14, 2022 THIS!!!! this is driving me insane - 2 major projects I’m working on and the automation is completely out of whack and is out of time!! Everything is set up properly but it’s to do with the delay compensation. Also the GUI is massively out of time when viewing gain reduction / analysers!! Seems like automation and UI isnt compensated on 10.7.2?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ralphonz Posted January 14, 2022 Author Share Posted January 14, 2022 Yes thats correct, the GUI isn't compensated correctly - or at all as far as i can see. Certain types of automation aren't either - Send mutes, and plugin bypass. 2 workarounds (yes it sucks) - Don't use send mutes and plugin bypasses where timing is critical, just automate the send level from and use any built-in plugin parameter such as the plugins' own bypass or a mix control (in other works make sure the plugin is never activated/deactivated via automation in the logic channel strip) Hope that makes sense. I really wish they'd just fix it though. I'm tempted to move to pro tools, but price. I keep meaning to give UAD Luna a go to... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laced Posted March 29, 2022 Share Posted March 29, 2022 Didn’t they roll out a “fix” for this last year. what’s going on with them and this problem? One would think the fundamental would be right before anything else on a DAW. Has it been fixed in 10.7.3? Furthermore I suspect the code for the whole app is on its last leg, because it’s clearly broken. To be at version 10 and still no sample accurate mute automation, is very suspect Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ralphonz Posted March 30, 2022 Author Share Posted March 30, 2022 The thing is that there needs to be another "state" for plugins (like in pro tools). In pro tools when a plugin is bypassed (or a send with plugins) then the latency of the plugin is still compensated for, so when you unmute the send or bypass, it comes in in time. If you then "deactivate" a plugin settings are retained but it is removed from the chain. In logic, when you bypass a plugin or send, then the latency that plugin or send induces is no longer compensated for, so when you automate the bypass or send mute to on, whatever it is will be out of time as latency is suddenly introduced and not compensated for. As for the UI and controlling live automation, this is just very sloppy on logics part. Surely it should be an easy task to compensate for latency with the graphics (i.e. meters) and writing live automation with a surface which is also not compensated for correctly: for example delay throws, you record them in then have to move all the automation to get it in time. Again, these are things protools handles very well. It's an absolute pleasure to see your level meters and gain reduction meters pumping perfectly in time with what you're hearing! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ralphonz Posted March 30, 2022 Author Share Posted March 30, 2022 I'm slowly coming to the conclusion that Apple are just not interested in Logic Pro being a professional Mixing application. The mixer just needs so much love which it is not getting, especially in terms of more functional things (like re-arranging track order in the mixer - I mean come on, people have been asking for that for decades and it would just make so much sense). The meters and faders themselves are very short and not nice to use as is the stereo pan (grrrr that fiddly green line!) as well as not being visually compensated for. No region gain automation, or s-shaped fades for regions. And relative automation is waaaay to easy to mess up a carefully balanced mix. All this is such a shame, because it's so close to being better than protools if only these fundamental things were addressed and followed better professional mixing standards. Instead, apple have obviously spent their resources on the live loops mode and other extended functionality aimed more at creators and producers than engineers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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