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Very menacing issue with playback and meters in Logic Pro X


JohnnyJohnnyJohnny

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Hey everyone. I am having a seriously crazy issue that I’m hoping someone on here can help me with.

 

A few days ago I was in Logic and i was just listening to a mix I was working on when all of a sudden I hear this very loud click or POP come from my monitors and playback completely stops and then the meters on both my UAD Apollo’s pinned, maxed out completely in the red until I quit Logic and then the meters stopped. Scared me half to death. I literally thought the Apollo was going to explode. Another unusual thing is when the meters were maxed out there was no sound though coming from my monitors (just the previous loud pop) but I did have my headphone’s level turned down all the way so maybe there was some kinda sound coming through there that represented the viciousness of my meters.

 

So anyway... this has happened a few times now over the last few days where now I’m afraid to even open Logic. The last time it happened I’m pretty sure it smoked the left channel of my vintage preamps in which I use the I/O plugin on my mixbus for.

 

To say I’m bummed out would be a MASSIVE understatement. No idea if I can fix my expensive vintage preamp. No idea what other damage this psychotic issue has done to my other gear, and meanwhile I’ve got deadlines for mixes due all week.

 

Does anyone have ANY idea what this could possibly be? I have googled the issue the best I can and the only thing I found that was relatable was a few mentions of this “White Noise of Death” some people have reported but it was many years ago and none of the incidents got resolved in the threads. So I figured it was suitable to start a posting on this here.

 

Any insight will be VERY, very appreciated.

I am d e s p e r a t e. ☹️

 

(Btw.. my system details are in my signature, but is that enough info or should I post more?)

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Ah. Ok that’s good advice thank you!!

 

So just to clarify, I should try and recreate the issue with one plugin off, and keep going until the issue stops?

 

Also I figured it’s worth mentioning that there’s another issue where my computer, (which I leave on overnight usually) will reboot itself at some point when I’m not there. Like for example if I leave my studio at 10pm, and come back at 7am, 9 out of 10 times I’ll find my Mac at the login screen because it had restarted. And then when I log back in there’s always a crash report waiting for me and all over the crash report I see UAD (universal audio). Makes me wonder now if it’s UAD plugins doing this

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They are not necessarily related, it sounds like different issues to me.

 

What you're trying to do is find if there is a single plugin that's causing this - removing this will "fix" your project, and will give you an opportunity to update it or report it to the developer as a bug to be looked at.

 

If you can't boil it down to a plugin, and the whole audio output is killed, then it could be audio driver related issue (eg with your Apollos) in which I'd suggest going through UA support.

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It can also happen if you have some heavy CPU processing going on.. Speakers of course make sound by moving in/out very quickly.. If a signal is -5 volts the speaker cone is 'sucked in' 0 volts is when the speaker is in its' middle position + 5 volts is when the speaker is extended to it's outer range.

 

You hear music when the speaker is moving thru it's range -5 volts, crossing 0 volts, and going out to a positive voltage. If a speaker is forced to go from it's from a - voltage to an appreciable + voltage in one step, it will make a very loud pop/crack sound.. AND if your volume is really loud, you could blow the speaker.

 

If I'm using some cpu heavy plug-ins'' like U-HE and I add one too many (now having 5 instances of U-hw VI's running, I will get the pop, and no audio.. Shut off the plug-in that caused the pop, take your other plug-ins, and freeze, or do Boune-in-Place. This will significantly lessen the load on the CPU and you should not have a problem. So, yes, you might have a buggy plug-in, but it also could be Mac's CPU overloading, and not the plug-ins fault

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Heya. Just wanted to update this for if people are having this issue in the future.

 

Des99, I did what your said and played process of elimination with all the plugins in my session and it looks like it was all because of Softube’s RS127 plugin from the Abbey Road Brilliance Pack. It was the one plugin in that session that wasn’t updated so as soon as i updated it I haven’t had the problem silence.

 

Now I do I gotta say, it’s is absolutely INSANE to me that in 2020 the result of not updating a little one knob plugin such as RS127 resulted in the left channel of my fancy hardware vintage preamps getting completely smoked, but here we are. I only just hope it’s fixable.

 

Thanks again for your help Des99! Very appreciated

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it looks like it was all because of Softube’s RS127 plugin from the Abbey Road Brilliance Pack. It was the one plugin in that session that wasn’t updated so as soon as i updated it I haven’t had the problem silence.

Interesting lapsus on that last word. :mrgreen: But in all seriousness, glad to hear you found the culprit, and thank you for updating your thread with your solution, it could help others.

 

Now I do I gotta say, it’s is absolutely INSANE to me that in 2020 the result of not updating a little one knob plugin such as RS127 resulted in the left channel of my fancy hardware vintage preamps getting completely smoked, but here we are. I only just hope it’s fixable.

That's really annoying indeed. I hope you can fix it and I would also contact those plug-in manufacturers to relate your story, see what they have to say (if anything).

 

I also can't help but wonder if there couldn't/shouldn't be a way for the Logic developers to program some sort of surge protection circuit built-into Logic's audio engine to prevent these kind of things from happening, even when the culprit may be a 3rd party plug-in. There have been way too many reports of these various bursts of white noise and loud popping noise issues that can damage downstream analog hardware as was apparently your case — or even worse, damage the operator's hearing!

 

Hope you can fix your preamps.

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Thanks David! Yeah I’m really hoping it can be fixed. I’m guessing since my monitors are pretty modern (Kali LP8) they must have some kinda kill switch for extreme signals so they don’t get blown and that’s how they survived. The rack unit was made in the 70s and definitely not built to survive the cold digital hit it took.

 

I sent a message to Softube already!

 

Thanks again for the input!

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I had the “lethal white noise” blast for the first time last week during a very small project using a few virtual instruments (NI, Spitfire LABS). I’m also using a UAD interface (Apollo 8p) but all plugins in the UA Console app were deactivated. I’m staying on Logic 4.6, High Sierra even though some of the NI Komplete 13 instruments require Mojave or later. I monitor at very low levels (good/bad news about an apartment studio) so no physical damage.

Very concerning that the problem trend lately seems to be major crashes and corruption resulting in physical (ear and hardware) damage and unrecoverable total project loss. Now that I’m finally getting used to using Logic I’m not looking forward to changing DAWS but reliability (and safety) is a prime requirement.

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Oh man Serge. I feel for you. What specifically were you doing when the white noise attack hit? Like which instrument and were there any 3rd party or Logic plugins running at all. Seems like this post may gather more and more attention as people keep having the issue because there is very little on the matter when searching online. So would be good I think to keep track of specific details that’s causing this

 

How many times did it happen? And what did you have to do to get it to stop? I just had to quit Logic and it stopped but there’s another person having this issue over on the UAD forums who said they couldn’t get it to stop until they turned off the actually interface. I also have a friend who has had this issue in Logic who doesn’t own any UAD gear so it definitely feels like a Logic issue.

Also do you know if all your plugins/virtual instruments are up to date? What about your UAD software?

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Ouch - I'm feeling everybody's pain with this issue.

My system toasted my Quested Powered Monitors (Read$$$) and left my ears ringing for days - that was 10 YEARS AGO

For what it's worth...

This white noise blast issue is long standing with Apple MAC...

I now use 'Ice9' as a limiter plugin on my Stereo Out in all my LOGIC templates.. It's available free on the web.

However, I don't believe the noise blast is just a LOGIC issue.

I have generated white noise while working with only one audio track in LOGIC with NO 3rd party plugins installed.

But I have also had it in iTunes...

There are a few topics on this forum dealing with the issue in different configurations.

That it is still happening should be unacceptable for Apple.

There has never been a clear definition of what circumstances generate the noise blasts.

I feel that it might be linked to audio output that can'e be reconciled during DAC calculations.

Maybe there is some flaw in the DAC calculations which sometimes allows the final rendering of the data for audio output to take the dB off the scale... ouch!

Perhaps a NaN generated when calculations result in undefined or unrepresentable values.

 

As a non-expert suggestion, may I suggest Apple could consider integrating some kind of software dB limiter as the very last object in the audio out chain, post all other programs, that monitors the signal and stops it going above a SAFE threshold of x.xdB?

A simple precaution and solution that would affect nothing but save a lot of ear stress.

I have sent my feedback to Apple.

Until Apple steps up to the plate for this MAJOR problem, as one of those who has experienced the White Noise Blast, I'll continue with my workaround of always using 3rd party limiters on my audio output.

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However, I don't believe the noise blast is just a LOGIC issue.

I agree with your statement Frances O by the way. What I was suggesting is that I suppose Logic could have a surge protection like Ice 9 built-in to protect about issues like these whether the culprit is Logic or not (and my honest guess is that it's never actually Logic's fault).

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Someone from Apple contacted me to get more info about my issue. They asked if I could send them a profile and a copy of the session where the issue was happening and I of course agreed.

 

At the studio now, preparing this little package to send to them and Logic won’t even open. Just random crash at loading. No detail about which plugin is causing it. Just loading... loading... NOPE!

 

The past 6 months, without exaggeration I spend more time trying to get Logic to perform basic functions, like OPEN then I do making music. I am at an utter loss.

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Someone from Apple contacted me to get more info about my issue. They asked if I could send them a profile and a copy of the session where the issue was happening and I of course agreed.

 

At the studio now, preparing this little package to send to them and Logic won’t even open. Just random crash at loading. No detail about which plugin is causing it. Just loading... loading... NOPE!

For that reason I have Logic set to "Do Nothing" when I open Logic. Meanwhile you can still open Logic without opening a project by holding down Option while Logic is starting.

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Ok. That’s good to know actually thanks. But thats not going to help you get into the session that’s crashing is it?

Actually it is: you can then open Logic's audio preferences, disable the Core Audio engine then open your session.

 

But even if your session is crashing, do send it to them. They'll know what to do with it.

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I hear you David:

What I was suggesting is that I suppose Logic could have a surge protection like Ice 9 built-in to protect about issues like these whether the culprit is Logic or not
.

 

I don't claim to be an expert in the DAC field, but I can't understand why a global solution for Computer Audio Out can not be achieved.

I don't know of any use for a surge in Digital Audio Signal over the MAX threshold of 0.0 dB.

Perhaps we need a separate 'Nice to Have White Noise Fix' topic for this where anyone with the noise issue can log their experience and the instances of this can be tracked - it might lead to some final solution.

IMHO this issue is a real show stopper. Way beyond the daily programme and setup issues encountered when working with DAWs.

The blast has real consequences for our prime instrument - our ears!

Have you ever experienced it?

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I don't know of any use for a surge in Digital Audio Signal over the MAX threshold of 0.0 dB.

Well that's another question, and the answer would be complex, but yes, the user would still have to have the option. Basically, digital audio is measured in dB FS (Full Scale), where 0 dB FS is defined as a sample with the 24-bit value of 111111111111111111111111. So in digital audio there's no such thing as a value above 0 dB FS (there are no more available bits to encode it). As for 32 bit floating point values, there are many uses for values above 0 dBFS, mainly the apparent infinite headroom, avoiding distortion even if you're not perfectly conservative with your levels when working in the Logic mixer.

 

So I'm not sure how Ice 9 works behind the scenes exactly but it's not a simple matter of limiting the peaks at 0 dB FS since there is no digital audio signal above 0 dB FS to start with. That means we dont' want a global blanket solution for our Mac that couldn't be turned off. We certainly want user control over this, IMO. I can't stand it when my computer acts as if it knows better than me what I am trying to do and tries to protect me against certain operations I'm trying to perform.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Bump.

 

Welp all good things must come to an end. Had a good two weeks of Logic being issue free and BAM. Had the same attack happen just now. So I just wanted to bump this to see if anyone else is having run ins with this issue again.

 

Crazy thing is this time all my plugins and all my software is completely up to date. So now I have NO idea why it’s happening. Sucks because I can’t afford to damage any more expensive hardware. I don’t want to abandon Logic but I think I don’t have a choice anymore.

 

So anyone else have this issue recently?

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  • 2 weeks later...

@JohnnyJohnnyJohnny

 

I hear you....

Have you taken any steps to stop the noise blasts?

I can report that I have not had an issue since installing the Cerberus ice9 plugin on my stereo out in LOGIC.

However, I can't guarantee that Ice9 will resolve your issue - as it most likely has a different root cause to mine.

 

With Ice9 installed, I still sometimes hear a minor drop out when my system clips a hot signal

Ice9 is available as a free download here:

https://www.kvraudio.com/product/ice9-automute-by-cerberus-audio/downloads.

 

I have the plugin set on my templates so I never forget. Mine gates at +0.1dB. This is adjustable up or down.

563507654_Ice9limiter.png.f7a4e99a3c5ed1076abea2a980f952f0.png

 

Also, I still remember when I generated the white noise blast issue - I had glued two separate audio files together.

If I had been paying attention I would have seen the new audio file rendered as a solid white block file - not your typical audio peaks and troughs.

My iTunes experience was probably due to a similar file bounced to MP3 from LOGIC.... but that was 10 years ago.

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Hey Frances! I actually have the Ice9 plugin, thanks for the link though! It’s placed in the last spot after my mix bus. The issue just busts right through it.

 

Also it’s worth noting that I don’t get the white noise, I get a very loud pop and i immediately lose all audio but my meters get pinned into the red until I shut down. You can feel the chaotic energy coming off my interface. My thjnking is that there IS white noise going, hence the pinned meters, but I think my monitors (Kali LP 6) must have some kinda kill switch. I rarely ever use headphones but I bet I’d hear white noise if I had them on.

 

I’m at such a loss I’ve decided just to actually move on from Logic and Apple. I’ve lost so much money and time (and smoked hardware) because of this issue that it would actually be really irresponsible if I did continue to use Logic and an Apple computer. I think I’ll be fine with Reaper anyway. Sorta excited to try it.

 

Anyway thanks for the response. I just wanted to post that last update in hopes it might help someone somehow down the road!

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Oh and sorry I didn’t answer your first question. I’ve taken so many steps over the last couple months to stop the issue. For awhile I thought it was from plugins that weren’t updated but I have literally every piece of software updated on my computer. I have nothing else on my computer but registered audio software. Nothing pirated. I’ve done hardware diagnostics. Emailed Apple/Logic. Emailed some suspected plugin companies. Reinstalled everything. etc etc.. you get the point. Haha. But yeah. It still happens. Destroys my beloved hardware along the way.
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  • 4 weeks later...
Apologies for not responding sooner to this thread. Since the consensus seems to be this is not a Logic issue, providing more detail on the circumstances than I did in my previous reply probably won’t help. And it’s been bad news/bad news experiences for some time now. I spend a month getting Logic to run, keep running, or closing properly (High Sierra, Logic 10.4.6). I have a suspicion that the advice frequently give on this forum to maintain enough boot volume available drive space is critical. I’ve been very reluctant to upgrade past my current OS/Logic versions having achieved some stability using low track counts with virtual instruments, but clients and project compatibility may force the issue. I was hoping to put upgrading off until the M1 generation settles in (my iMac is six years old).
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