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Does the competition have an influence on Apple Logic pro updates?


stratquebec

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What's is the chord track feature? What does it do, and how does it help when I'm already playing the chords I want to play in my song..?

It does many things, from a traditional songwriting perspective I have many projects on the go which I dip in and out of, having the chords inline with the project is such a big bonus when I’m picking up on ideas that are brewing, it really helps as a reference when laying down bass or keys over a basic guitar concept for example.

 

Further to that it can be used to create different versions across sections of the song to quickly try out new ideas - this is especially good if you have a strong verse which would be better suited as a chorus, for example.

 

I find myself to be more deliberate and focused on the chord progressions and less focused on instrument technicalities too. I’ve never composed outside of the instrument before, and it’s refreshing as it strips away the natural biases you have - so even when I think I have a good progression there I can enhance and learn new elements not limited by instrument skill. Even if you have chords down you can change them and monophonic audio and midi will reprocess to match.

 

You can also bring in patterns and styles for different instruments and build around the core chord track guide and it will play in tune, they’re like pattern based arps for bass, EPs, organs, synths etc. Great if you’re a guitarist who wants to see how an organ would sound, again if you change up progressions the underlying tracks and patterns will auto refresh.

 

It’s also used as a basis for pitch correction on vocals or planning a vocals melody, Variaudio (flex pitch) colour codes to the scale or chords played which is great for correction OR coming up with more interesting vocal takes. On top of that multipart vocal harmonies can be generated at the click of a button - you can use these as guide tracks to record actual vocals of that pitch too.

 

Really, it’s just providing an extra level of structure and deliberation to the song composition, it’s up to the user how far they want to take it. Just having the chords listed as part of the project timeline is a big bonus. Particularly when you can push that straight out to sheet music if you need to.

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I also disagree with that - particularly if you're suggesting that MacOS doesn't have such surprises.

 

From an audio viewpoint i'm far more hesitant to upgrade MacOS than windows*, because Apple have a history of changing the base foundations AND raising the minimum spec with each OS release, causing hardware and peripherals to stop working. Audio Unit specs also are subject to change with very little warning which can render a companies entire plugin unusable for the first few months of updates because they are at the mercy of the AU wrapper developer to get things sorted.

 

It's so common to read threads on here with people asking if it's 'safe' to update, and Apple then uses their apps (such as Logic) to further force you into OS updates - and after you've updated and got everything working... There's really not much difference and you wonder why you had to jump through hoops.

 

Nearly 4 Years ago Win 10 was released - in that time Mac has seen El Cap, Sierra, High Sierra and Mojave as considerable yearly updates. Throughout that upgrade cycle numerous MacBook, iMacs and Mac Pro's have all fallen by the wayside - these aren't small updates, they're significantly killing hardware - i don't see the same on the windows platform, what Apple do is basically a culling of old hardware.

 

*Windows, of course, likes to just update itself when you nip for a coffee. :)

 

Ok, some of my comments are too broad-bush.

Your recent experience with Windows and Cubase has been positive as it is for many.

 

To be clear, I like Cubase and wanted to embrace it. I was a VST user back in the day and then picked up again with C5 and every version since then. The boat-loads of features were always appreciated, the poor performance on Mac was not. Things improved significantly as of v9/9.5. and C10. Other issues remained

- Crash on quit

- Need to Force Quit

- Emptying the plugins folder to identify some incompatibility that did not exist in Logic, or other DAW I use.

- Inaccurate hit points

- Inabilily to change a track from stereo to mono.

 

I seriously investigated a move to Windows including purchase of a Custom PC for Cubase. Almost clicked purchase more than a few times.

A primer for the curious is this thread at Gearslutz: “dont buy cubase 10 its not stable”. Summary: "It works great” and “There are issues”. This statement is a standout: “There is still a feeling of being careful about what you do in the back of your mind, which is a bit of distraction.” Yep, there are issues with Logic and other DAW as well.

 

For those Logic users that are fedup for one reason or another, the grass may not be greener on the other side. The powerful workflow - simplicity, efficiency, and stability - that you’re accustomed to with Logic my not carry over to Cubase/Windows. It can be a crapshoot determing whether issues are associated with MS/W10, hardware, or Cubase.

 

I'm not trying the sway the opinion of others one way or the other, rather, I've made an informed choice to stick with Apple and Logic. If others are considering a change, then they also need to make informed decisions.

 

As it relates to the thread starter's question, Cubase had more or less one-click tempo detection for audio and MIDI long before Logic. The recent addition of Smart Tempo for audio and MIDI is much appreciated. The Piano roll brush tool is most likely borrowed from DP. Smart controls - inspired by Cubase Quick Controls? Articulation ID is Logic's alternative Cubase VST Expression.

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I seriously investigated a move to Windows including purchase of a Custom PC for Cubase. Almost clicked purchase more than a few times.

A primer for the curious is this thread at Gearslutz: “dont buy cubase 10 its not stable”. Summary: "It works great” and “There are issues”. This statement is a standout: “There is still a feeling of being careful about what you do in the back of your mind, which is a bit of distraction.” Yep, there are issues with Logic and other DAW as well.

So you have no experience of what you claim then? This is the reverse of what users such Fisher King is always trying to explain to people on here who continually talk down on Logic and Mac OS issues - 90% of the time it's stuff people have read elsewhere, and where questioned they haven't any experience themselves - it's exactly the same both sides of the fence, the same crap is talked.

 

I'm pretty sure that if JunkieXL somehow manages to traverse all this issues with Cubase and Windows that we can, eh? Like i say, it's been smooth sailing for me - just as the vast majority of users which aren't wasting time on forums like us! :-) :-)

 

For those Logic users that are fedup for one reason or another, the grass may not be greener on the other side. The powerful workflow - simplicity, efficiency, and stability - that you’re accustomed to with Logic my not carry over to Cubase/Windows. It can be a crapshoot determing whether issues are associated with MS/W10, hardware, or Cubase.

 

The grass is greener for me, it's vastly cheaper and easier to maintain too and i get far more grass for my money. For example:- Show me where Logic devs actively engage with their community, look at Cubase and how involved Steinberg are with their users. Frequent tutorials, their 'hangout' sessions where they open Q&A's, an official forum that has a good share of staff informing and helping users with the purchase, setup, usage and future development of the software. I don't know why this has came as such a shock to me, but i like the fact that i'm dealing with a company who actually deal with their customers in a humane fashion.

 

Heck, the sale they recently had was for new purchases, the community complained and they added 50% on all upgrade pricing too, within a few days. Apple just do what they like when they like and if your machine isn't on their friends list - you're out of luck. We have no idea of the next Logic update, what will be in it, what may be broken etc. We're lucky that David (and co) puts such work into this resource because honestly it's picking up a lot of slack that Apple leave hanging.

 

That's no sly on Apple as i love their products, and i love Logic, i've just had my eyes opened to another OS, and it's Apples business model - it don't think Apple fits me as a user, it's very simple - i got a family, the concept of an OS being a somewhat blind religious choice is the least of my priorities.

 

I'm not trying the sway the opinion of others one way or the other, rather, I've made an informed choice to stick with Apple and Logic. If others are considering a change, then they also need to make informed decisions.

 

I was perfectly happy, and were it not for 3 new machines that i needed for work i wouldn't have even 'tried' a windows machine, but it was looking astronomical price that i was going to pay - as a musician i'd rather be spending that money into new guitar(s), or something that would benefit me musically. But even IF i went out and spent 5,6,7k (whatever it would be) - i'd still have to walk around with a MacBook that required an external drive hanging out the side for video/audio work. It's just crazy, i cannot support a company that actively is looking to screw and restrict solutions to my needs - that's not the Apple i signed up to many years ago.

 

Like you i believed a lot of the nonsense in regards to Windows from a Mac viewpoint - but since getting a trial windows machine i've found crossplatform equivalents of all the software i use and it's no different being in windows to Mac once you're using the software. It's all the same, just as using Google Chrome/Firefox on a Mac or Windows is - no different, quick and stable. And now Cubase is starting to enhance what i can do musically vs Logic.

 

Of course, a change of scenery is really good creatively too, so it may turn out that i come running back to Logic, i just don't know - i'm yet to go through the yearly paid upgrade cycle - but that i can take or leave depending on what features are added, and pick it up in their sales later in the year if i'm undecided.

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I seriously investigated a move to Windows including purchase of a Custom PC for Cubase. Almost clicked purchase more than a few times.

A primer for the curious is this thread at Gearslutz: “dont buy cubase 10 its not stable”. Summary: "It works great” and “There are issues”. This statement is a standout: “There is still a feeling of being careful about what you do in the back of your mind, which is a bit of distraction.” Yep, there are issues with Logic and other DAW as well.

So you have no experience of what you claim then? This is the reverse of what users such Fisher King is always trying to explain to people on here who continually talk down on Logic and Mac OS issues - 90% of the time it's stuff people have read elsewhere, and where questioned they haven't any experience themselves - it's exactly the same both sides of the fence, the same crap is talked.

 

You obviously overlooked the part that I have used Cubase VST (v3.02 to 5.2) and Cubase versions 5 through 10 on the Mac. I know first hand how Cubase functions on the Mac platform! A couple of years ago, I purchased W10 and used Bootcamp to test it out and it worked fine. I just prefer the Mac environment. You can now retract this with whatever it was meant to insinuate - So you have no experience of what you claim then?

 

Club Cubase and the Google Hangouts are phenomenal resources. At one point, I posted the list of topics there on a monthly basis for some time.

 

It is a proven fact that Cubase runs more efficiently on Window, a point I'm not disputing.

In the process of determining whether or not purchasing a PC was in my best interests, yes, I read numberous posts over time and made notes to inform my decision. The fact that I almost made a purchase several times indicates it was a decision not taken lightly.

 

I'm pretty sure that if JunkieXL somehow manages to traverse all this issues with Cubase and Windows that we can, eh? Like i say, it's been smooth sailing for me - just as the vast majority of users which aren't wasting time on forums like us! :-) :-)

 

Yes, but I don't want to!

 

I understand the frustration with the high cost of Macs and the frequent OS revisions. I have used Windows machines at work since the days of XP through W10. You and many others like Windows with all of the advantages it provides: the ability to use inexpensive hardware and the longevity of applications compared to the short life span on macOS.

 

My exploration of Cubase/Windows was a matter of keeping my eyes open to other possibilities, not knowing whether or not Apple was going to continue to develop Logic. I too didn't like the Apple that turned its back on the creative communities - graphics, video, and audio production - that kept it afloat years ago. It was infuriating that profits from iPhones and such caused Apple to lose focus on the needs of creatives. Yep, I spotted HP's Mac to Z which was pretty deflating as a die-hard Mac user. But now, I have no doubt the future of Logic is solid. I'm fully expecting Studio Winds and Percussion in the next LPX update.

 

With all due respect, let's close this discussion for now.

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Well, des99, a youtube video worth a thousand words!

 

 

I also enjoy the chord pads feature and would be happy to see somtehing similar implemented in Logic

 

 

Just get Scaler, popular bit of software that grows with you and is perfect for chord progressions and suggestions. Has a huge community behind it.

https://www.pluginboutique.com/product/3-Studio-Tools/72-Utility/3933-Scaler

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Unless they're asleep at the wheel, of course the competition has an effect. And please note that Logic (then Creator and Notator) have been competing with Steinberg since the 80's.

 

That said, Logic is a very mature program and to a large degree, set in its ways. But I wouldn't be surprised to see something like Bitwig's Grid appear at some point.

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You obviously overlooked the part that I have used Cubase VST (v3.02 to 5.2) and Cubase versions 5 through 10 on the Mac. I know first hand how Cubase functions on the Mac platform! A couple of years ago, I purchased W10 and used Bootcamp to test it out and it worked fine. I just prefer the Mac environment. You can now retract this with whatever it was meant to insinuate - So you have no experience of what you claim then?

What i disagreed with was that Win 10 is fraught with stability issues, 'surprises' and becomes a crapshoot for diagnosing issues - my entire point here is that it's no different than Logic and Mac in regards to stability and/or other issues - and your experience has also proven that.

 

If it's down to choice and workflow desires, then that's a whole different matter and one i wouldn't disagree with whatsoever, but that's not what you said. You've not used a dedicated Windows machine with Cubase/Other DAWs yet you're using gearslutz comments to somehow back up the point that there is more issues than Mac platform despite your firsthand experience demonstrating that A) Win 10 worked fine for you, and B) Windows proved to be a stronger platform for audio in a Cubase environment.

 

You're kinda making my point for me, unless you have first hand experience of this crapshoot which you suggest?

 

Club Cubase and the Google Hangouts are phenomenal resources.

 

It's strange, being in the Apple sphere for so long the only feedback you get from the company is done via powerpoint style presentations and corporate sales events broadcast around the world - having down to earth resources such as the hangouts, the tutorials, Q&A sessions, forum that's officially staffed, presales support via community - It really did surprise me, and i like it a lot.

 

In the process of determining whether or not purchasing a PC was in my best interests, yes, I read numberous posts over time and made notes to inform my decision. The fact that I almost made a purchase several times indicates it was a decision not taken lightly.

 

Well, i picked the Win 10 machine up as cheap buy on ebay, i was expecting to hate it and honestly i was depressed when it arrived, i hated plugging my audio interface into it - the whole thing made me feel dirty lol, but i wanted to do it just so i was making a more informed decision on what my next hardware investments will be . But, like i say, once i had my stuff installed, it was no different in use. Once you're in the confines of each app, it's just the same, i don't know why i was fussing about it so much really.

 

The machine cost me 160-180 GBP, and 10-15 GBP for a firewire card - and bingo, smooth as silk, i don't "love it", but that's cause i haven't really got a financial investment in it like Apple - i've got thousands wrapped up in their gear still. But, i've got a foot in each door right now, and i can work in any environment - having to click a different icon or learn new gestures just isn't an issue for me, so personally i'm golden.

 

I too didn't like the Apple that turned its back on the creative communities - graphics, video, and audio production - that kept it afloat years ago. It was infuriating that profits from iPhones and such caused Apple to lose focus on the needs of creatives. But now, I have no doubt the future of Logic is solid. I'm fully expecting Studio Winds and Percussion in the next LPX update.

 

It's going to get a lot worse, in fact, it has already in that there's many devices out there where you can't even upgrade basic elements like RAM, let alone HDD's - you buy a 128GB machine, that's your lot! I can't support a company that wants to charge it's long standing customers $800 for a 1TB upgrade, that's an UPGRADE price!? I got 1TB+256GB SSD in a 2012 Macbook Pro - how can i 'upgrade' with those prices warranted and STILL have less storage? I don't know how i could trim down 256GB without having to travel with additional dongles, or have some kind of unlimited 4G plan.

 

It's madness, who actually wants these super thin MacBook Pros to the point that they're not covering pro requirements? Keyboard failures on previous models, T2 Chip issues for USB audio users - it's crazy. Get a system failure? Sorry can't take it to your local repair shop that you know and trust! ...cause they like to sue independents who are trying to help customers.

 

Intel has been Apple's saving grace for Mac, going through Snow Leopard and Logic 9 seems such a golden period in hindsight.

 

I believe that the move to new architecture and their arrogance is going to send them backwards - Logic and MacOS (I believe) will become universal apps (MacOS/iOS) and you'll lose the simple ability that Finder currently offers - they want icloud to be your primary 'go to' - and then you are locked in big time.

 

While i love Apple's security/privacy aspects and the additions that a secure crossplatform cloud hosted environment brings, i don't love it enough to trade in my freedom for it. Not when they will look to squeeze you for every penny possible, the extra premium used to feel worth it, now it feels that you get less.

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You obviously overlooked the part that I have used Cubase VST (v3.02 to 5.2) and Cubase versions 5 through 10 on the Mac. I know first hand how Cubase functions on the Mac platform! A couple of years ago, I purchased W10 and used Bootcamp to test it out and it worked fine. I just prefer the Mac environment. You can now retract this with whatever it was meant to insinuate - So you have no experience of what you claim then?

What i disagreed with was that Win 10 is fraught with stability issues, 'surprises' and becomes a crapshoot for diagnosing issues - my entire point here is that it's no different than Logic and Mac in regards to stability and/or other issues - and your experience has also proven that.

 

If it's down to choice and workflow desires, then that's a whole different matter and one i wouldn't disagree with whatsoever, but that's not what you said. You've not used a dedicated Windows machine with Cubase/Other DAWs yet you're using gearslutz comments to somehow back up the point that there is more issues than Mac platform despite your firsthand experience demonstrating that A) Win 10 worked fine for you, and B) Windows proved to be a stronger platform for audio in a Cubase environment.

 

You're kinda making my point for me, unless you have first hand experience of this crapshoot which you suggest?

 

Club Cubase and the Google Hangouts are phenomenal resources.

 

It's strange, being in the Apple sphere for so long the only feedback you get from the company is done via powerpoint style presentations and corporate sales events broadcast around the world - having down to earth resources such as the hangouts, the tutorials, Q&A sessions, forum that's officially staffed, presales support via community - It really did surprise me, and i like it a lot.

 

In the process of determining whether or not purchasing a PC was in my best interests, yes, I read numberous posts over time and made notes to inform my decision. The fact that I almost made a purchase several times indicates it was a decision not taken lightly.

 

Well, i picked the Win 10 machine up as cheap buy on ebay, i was expecting to hate it and honestly i was depressed when it arrived, i hated plugging my audio interface into it - the whole thing made me feel dirty lol, but i wanted to do it just so i was making a more informed decision on what my next hardware investments will be . But, like i say, once i had my stuff installed, it was no different in use. Once you're in the confines of each app, it's just the same, i don't know why i was fussing about it so much really.

 

The machine cost me 160-180 GBP, and 10-15 GBP for a firewire card - and bingo, smooth as silk, i don't "love it", but that's cause i haven't really got a financial investment in it like Apple - i've got thousands wrapped up in their gear still. But, i've got a foot in each door right now, and i can work in any environment - having to click a different icon or learn new gestures just isn't an issue for me, so personally i'm golden.

 

I too didn't like the Apple that turned its back on the creative communities - graphics, video, and audio production - that kept it afloat years ago. It was infuriating that profits from iPhones and such caused Apple to lose focus on the needs of creatives. But now, I have no doubt the future of Logic is solid. I'm fully expecting Studio Winds and Percussion in the next LPX update.

 

It's going to get a lot worse, in fact, it has already in that there's many devices out there where you can't even upgrade basic elements like RAM, let alone HDD's - you buy a 128GB machine, that's your lot! I can't support a company that wants to charge it's long standing customers $800 for a 1TB upgrade, that's an UPGRADE price!? I got 1TB+256GB SSD in a 2012 Macbook Pro - how can i 'upgrade' with those prices warranted and STILL have less storage? I don't know how i could trim down 256GB without having to travel with additional dongles, or have some kind of unlimited 4G plan.

 

It's madness, who actually wants these super thin MacBook Pros to the point that they're not covering pro requirements? Keyboard failures on previous models, T2 Chip issues for USB audio users - it's crazy. Get a system failure? Sorry can't take it to your local repair shop that you know and trust! ...cause they like to sue independents who are trying to help customers.

 

Intel has been Apple's saving grace for Mac, going through Snow Leopard and Logic 9 seems such a golden period in hindsight.

 

I believe that the move to new architecture and their arrogance is going to send them backwards - Logic and MacOS (I believe) will become universal apps (MacOS/iOS) and you'll lose the simple ability that Finder currently offers - they want icloud to be your primary 'go to' - and then you are locked in big time.

 

While i love Apple's security/privacy aspects and the additions that a secure crossplatform cloud hosted environment brings, i don't love it enough to trade in my freedom for it. Not when they will look to squeeze you for every penny possible, the extra premium used to feel worth it, now it feels that you get less.

 

yikes. for some reason, i actually read all of that. my humble suggestion: less coffee. or more sleep. or both. delusional theories are just that; delusional. and theories. :shock:

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Just to add two cents... I use both Windows and macOS, and as of Win10, find both equally usable and stable. I find the screen-oriented fonts in W10 more comfortable for everyday work on non-retina displays. I love the retina display, and once you add that to the price of a PC, pricing is not as unequal as some would have you believe. The Mac has three other advantages for music in my book: Thunderbolt (still rare on Windows PCs, lowest latency), CoreAudio (use more than one audio interface), and the low price of Logic. But they're not deal-sealers. W10 has a ton of affordable software available.

 

Apple as a company? Nice products, horrible behavior. Worse than most and it started way back. They copied XParc and sued anyone else who did the same until they ran into a company with as much money for lawyers. Microsoft.

 

But reading skijumptoes post, I think that a lot of people are finally starting to wake up to that. The price of the iPhone 10X certainly raised some eyebrows.

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Apple as a company? Nice products, horrible behavior.

Unfortunately I can only agree. And ever since they started the app store I've wondered how they didn't get a monopoly lawsuit for charging developers 30% of EVERY single app sale on an iPhone. Can you imagine if Ford were making 30% of EVERY single after market car radio, roof rack and snow tires people purchased for their Ford? They would have been sued a looooong time ago. Now Apple is getting sued, is responding with a horrible attitude, and will most likely, in the worst of cases, end up paying a small fine compared to the $43 billions they pocketed from the sales of 3rd party apps.

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LOL. Way back in the day, all monopolies were moderated. I think the government attitude has changed for companies that compete globally. They don't want to tie their hands no matter the ill effects for the domestic population. I'm also sorry to say that corporations and financial institutions have never had more influence with lawmakers. I suppose there's always part of humanity to whom the acquisition of wealth is the prime motivator. Never quite understood that myself.
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.

What i disagreed with was that Win 10 is fraught with stability issues, 'surprises' and becomes a crapshoot for diagnosing issues - my entire point here is that it's no different than Logic and Mac in regards to stability and/or other issues - and your experience has also proven that.

 

Sometimes, after a W10 update, I lose connection to my external monitors, I lose network connections, applications that I depend upon - all current versions - do not open. This doesn't happen with every update, but it results in lost productive time when it does occur.

 

When my IT-managed W10 i7 laptop is working, yes it's stable and easy to use.

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Sometimes, after a W10 update, I lose connection to my external monitors, I lose network connections, applications that I depend upon - all current versions - do not open. This doesn't happen with every update, but it results in lost productive time when it does occur.

Likewise, frequently after a MacOS update my entire system fails to boot and there's no warning other than an Apple logo on a white screen. I've had to do a recovery/rollback to the previous OS to recover. I also had a forced disk format to APFS with no option to disable it when upgrading to High Sierra - and boom, after completion my system couldn't even see the drive - many users were forced into this reformat.

 

I then had to find some disk utilities which lead me to take a more straight forward path of removing/recreating partitions and installing MacOS fresh - I Lost all weekend setting everything up again, and even then my mail got corrupted as it tried to migrate, so to this day i've got a 'corrupted' folder with my other mail in from before that install which played havoc with imap and duplicating email messages. And if that wasn't enough my fw audio interface no longer worked either. (Strangely works fine in Win 10 a few years later tho!)

 

Quite often (every 2-3 months) i have to force power off my MacBook as the temporary files become so large that it won't even restart, oh and as for putting in memory sticks on a Mac, it absolutely peppers each folder with spotlight files which other devices don't take too kindly to. (My digital camera, in-car media player and Kobi E-book for example). It's great fun opening terminal and having to manually remove them all, silly me for trying to work with non-apple devices eh?!

 

So yeah, there's lost productive time across the board if you look at things objectively, if you remove your bias and just focus on what you're doing within each App - they're identical, i'm moving between Mac/PC every hour of every day using the same apps and there's just no difference. So i have to press the windows key to search apps/files rather than cmd+space - that's about the only difference i notice day-to-day.

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Likewise, frequently after a MacOS update my entire system fails to boot and there's no warning other than an Apple logo on a white screen. I've had to do a recovery/rollback to the previous OS to recover. I also had a forced disk format to APFS with no option to disable it when upgrading to High Sierra - and boom, after completion my system couldn't even see the drive.

 

I then had to find some disk utilities which lead me to take a more straight forward path of removing/recreating partitions and installing MacOS fresh - I Lost all weekend setting everything up again, and even then my mail got corrupted as it tried to migrate, so to this day i've got a 'corrupted' folder with my other mail in from before that install which played havoc with imap and duplicating email messages. And if that wasn't enough my fw audio interface no longer worked either. (Strangely works fine in Win 10 a few years later tho!)

 

Quite often (every 2-3 months) i have to force power off my MacBook as the temporary files become so large that it won't even restart, oh and as for putting in memory sticks on a Mac, it absolutely peppers each folder with spotlight files which other devices don't take too kindly to. (My digital camera, in-car media player and Kobi E-book for example). It's great fun opening terminal and having to manually remove them all, silly me for trying to work with non-apple devices eh?!

 

So yeah, there's lost productive time across the board if you look at things objectively, if you remove your bias and just focus on what you're doing within each App - they're identical, i'm moving between Mac/PC every hour of every day using the same apps and there's just no difference. So i have to press the windows key to search apps/files rather than cmd+space - that's about the only difference i notice day-to-day.

 

these are not normal issues, and you should investigate. i've never had that sort-of problem after an os update. the files you find on flashdrives in other oses... you should google that, i think there are simpler ways to 'clean' the drive. and not sure why you have to regularly force-quit your macbook (what 'temporary' files?)

 

i reboot occasionally; especially after working on a number on projects; it clears the ram. i restart, and go back to work. but my macs don't freeze, crash. they don't get stuck after an OS update. so, might be worth seriously getting software and hardware support for these issues. just a thought...

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... if you remove your bias and just focus on what you're doing within each App - they're identical, i'm moving between Mac/PC every hour of every day using the same apps and there's just no difference. So i have to press the windows key to search apps/files rather than cmd+space - that's about the only difference i notice day-to-day.

 

I can agree with you on this.

Beyond that, it really is down to workflow preference. I like Cubase but really work more efficienty with fewer distractions in Logic. Yep, I also explored the hackintosh option. :D

 

Agreeing with fisherking, the macOS (x) update issues you describe are not typical, none that I've ever experienced. Factors on this end that may or may not be at play:

- Clean install before a new update. Sierra was the last one I did. I never used Migration Assistant as there are documented issues.

- Leaving no leas than 25% free disk space on the boot or startup drive.

- Use of Cocktail for maintenance, probably not necessary but I still use it.

 

I do appreciate reading your posts which are always filled with useful information.

 

Cheers

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... if you remove your bias and just focus on what you're doing within each App - they're identical, i'm moving between Mac/PC every hour of every day using the same apps and there's just no difference. So i have to press the windows key to search apps/files rather than cmd+space - that's about the only difference i notice day-to-day.

 

I can agree with you on this.

Beyond that, it really is down to workflow preference. I like Cubase but really work more efficienty with fewer distractions in Logic. Yep, I also explored the hackintosh option. :D

 

Agreeing with fisherking, the macOS (x) update issues you describe are not typical, none that I've ever experienced. Factors on this end that may or may not be at play:

- Clean install before a new update. Sierra was the last one I did. I never used Migration Assistant as there are documented issues.

- Leaving no leas than 25% free disk space on the boot or startup drive.

- Use of Cocktail for maintenance, probably not necessary but I still use it.

- daily reboot

 

I do appreciate reading your posts which are always filled with useful information.

 

Cheers

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these are not normal issues, and you should investigate.

Neither are losing your external monitor after a Win 10 update, that's my point.

 

And i have investigated - it's my job, if you use your mac for other tasks such as app development it can quickly become clogged with temp/cache files that swallow tens of gigabytes up - and the only way to safely release them is with a restart, my MacBook and Mac Mini both fail to restart 9/10 times and just sit on a white screen - so i have to hold the power button down, sometimes requiring a reset SMC etc. These are machines which get vast use per week.

 

. the files you find on flashdrives in other oses... you should google that, i think there are simpler ways to 'clean' the drive.

 

MacOS writes spotlight files to each folder and echos each file with a dot underscore prefix indexer, so you have to run either a utility to wipe them out OR a terminal batch command.

 

i reboot occasionally; especially after working on a number on projects; it clears the ram. i restart, and go back to work. but my macs don't freeze, crash. they don't get stuck after an OS update. so, might be worth seriously getting software and hardware support for these issues. just a thought...

 

I got Apple Care business support plan to cover me, and they can't fix it - in fact, they never can - worse thing the Apple staff who have looked in the past are totally uninterested in sorting issues out, they only want to reformat and install OS fresh as a 'fix all' for any problems. I'm not doing that on my main machines, i just disable updates now. Local IT gurus are far better at delivering a service which doesn't involve mass deletion of files, but hey, they're being frozen out now for serving customers Apple fail to please.

 

The point is that sporadic issues plague all OS's and all systems, one example cannot be used as a demonstration or indication of an OS globally. As it stands today, For every example of Windows issues you can find equal the Mac side of things - what is changing however is the ability to maintain the hardware yourself. We are told to be more sustainable in the earths resources, yet they are moving further and further towards boutique pricing for throw away mass produced items and the need to develop more and more accessories/dongles/external devices to support what should be INSIDE the machine from day one.

 

And why? It's greed, pure and simple. It's not the Apple i signed up to and i won't go along with it cause of blind bias.

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Agreeing with fisherking, the macOS (x) update issues you describe are not typical

But the external monitors failing after a windows update is typical of a Windows setup, right?

I don't think you fully understood the point i was making, i.e. look at the list of items you actively maintain to keep your MacOS running smoothly.

 

Ask yourself why do you use Cocktail, why do you daily reboot, why won't you use the Migration Assistant... Because you're working around flaws, evident in ALL OS's. As poetic as Apple are about their lush operating systems, they're no less jacked than a windows machine.

 

I'm kinda the opposite to you in regards to how i maintain systems, for example my 2012 MacBook is thrown into a bag and i go from one place to the next open the lid, use it, close the lid... repeat...rinse. I don't use third party apps for cleaning up/maintaining system files, do everything as recommended by Apple, i don't even change backgrounds. I'm so vanilla that i nearly put the local Ice Cream man out of business! :)

 

The machine still has a yearly service - and really, i see it as the end of a great era in Apple computing. The machine is more flawless than i could ever hope, really. I proper love it! :)

 

Sadly i can't buy a new one, cause Apple don't sell such a thing anymore. They've cut that path down and now want to charge me ludicrous money to get NEAR it in regards to internal storage.

 

Really, if we agree that all OS's have their flaws, and that MacOS/Win10 are equal in regards to stability - then if we remove finances, It's just personal preference what you prefer. And as soon as it becomes a subjective decision then bias plays a MASSIVE role in how you perceive what you're using. i.e. if you're having to reboot daily, ensure that disk space is 25% free, not trust Apple's automation wizards AND run additional software to keep yourself satisfied - what's the difference between that and maintaining a windows machine?

 

I just have no biases, that's all, I would define myself as 'loving' Mac and perhaps 'respecting' Windows. Bottom line is that both gets me to the same place, but Windows has far less obstacles to the destination now, also the path looks much much clearer and therefore easier to warrant investing (time and money) into - Windows is just an old faithful donkey really.

 

Damn i wish i could say stuff within two paragraphs, i'm so sorry!!! lol :)

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LOL. Way back in the day, all monopolies were moderated. I think the government attitude has changed for companies that compete globally. They don't want to tie their hands no matter the ill effects for the domestic population. I'm also sorry to say that corporations and financial institutions have never had more influence with lawmakers. I suppose there's always part of humanity to whom the acquisition of wealth is the prime motivator. Never quite understood that myself.

 

Just to be clear David, that was cynical laughter of agreement. ;-)

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@skijumptoes - On the free space issue... And you probably know this already.... If the O/S is High Sierra or Mojave, the local snapshots that time machine creates will quickly fill up the drive. And, as a bonus, time machine doesn't actually manage the deletion of those snapshots very well. I periodically go in and remove the extraneous snapshots to free up more drive space. tmutil has a bunch of options that let you manage that process manually.

 

In general I agree on the Windows vs. Mac thing. Both are useful and both have flaws. Though Apple as a company does seem to be winning the evil empire contest at the moment......

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All the comments about Apple routinely breaking compatibility are probably true. They have done this repeatedly for 30 years, both in hardware and software. Maybe it is a preference it I definitely prefer working on OS X then windows and not by a close margin. I loathe the day I will have to work in windows again. But Apple is quite likely to force me there due to their hardware decisions. Simple as that. I started out on Mac back in the late 80’s and really loved it compred to DOS and windows 3.1. But after some years of always beating my head against a wall in the business world and also I got burned several time when Apple changed things so radically that my Apple stuff became a paper weight. So I got a pc. Let me tell you in those days pc based music was simply lousy. As a windows user I endured some years of my system slowing down due to registry growing out of control or becoming corrupted and the only fix I eventually came to was to make an image backup using ghost and restore it to a clean working state once a year. Windows computers were famous for “slowing down” over time due to these kinds of architectural problems. Or I’d be digging around in the device control panel trying to figure out an interrupt conflict so my soundcard would work, etc... finally ten years later I decided to make a hackintosh as an experiment. Wow so refreshing to use OS X instead of windows xp. I tried it for a year and got rid of all my windows stuff, bought real macs and that’s where I’ve been for the past ten years and relatively problem and hassle free. It is not even a close comparison.

 

But.... Apple has constrained the hardware and it is quite likely that I may have to roll over to windows again for a while, but I am NOT looking forward to it.

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If you're a laptop user i think a move to Windows is much much harder as your interaction with the hardware is much greater, the same applies to iMac users who get a great all-in-one solution. Mac Pro/Mac Mini owners - not so hard as it just plugs into your existing rig.

 

For many though, the stumbling block is with imessage/icloud. Being able to facetime someone quickly across devices is something you take for granted until faced with losing it! Me and Bill Gates are at it every night! ;)

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Well on that point I see things the other way. I bought a 2010 MBP which turned out to have a flakey capacitor that Apple never acknowledged or did anything about, some electronics engineer on the east coast figured out how to replace the capacitor and fix the kernel panics, but Apple never figured it out or even acknowledged it. And since then other MBP's have had similar failure problems as well and very difficult to diagnose or fix, the Apple Store "engineers" are almost useless and Apple does the bare minimum and usually their solution is to ask you to buy a new logic board or something, which often turns out to be useless to the actual problem etc. I do not trust Apple at all anymore for their laptops or tricky non-standard all in one solutions. Yes they have the touch bar and a few interesting innovations, but then on the other hand they still don't have a proper touchscreen laptop to run OSX on. Meanwhile the MS Surface Pro is a brilliant little laptop and there are many other alternatives as well, so on that front, windows is doing much better then Apple in my view. I would not buy another MBP anytime soon, maybe in 5 years they will improve their track record but for the past 10, Apple has been doing poorly, notwithstanding how beautiful the Apple laptops actually look to hold in your hand.
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@skijumptoes - On the free space issue... And you probably know this already.... If the O/S is High Sierra or Mojave, the local snapshots that time machine creates will quickly fill up the drive. And, as a bonus, time machine doesn't actually manage the deletion of those snapshots very well. I periodically go in and remove the extraneous snapshots to free up more drive space. tmutil has a bunch of options that let you manage that process manually.

 

I just upgraded to Mojave this weekend, so please fill me in. I was under the impression that Time Machine is not using APFS yet. TM has always been making local "snapshots" behind the scenes for quite a while and it also automatically removes them and never reports that space as used up on the drive either. Did they change to something that is APFS based and not automatically cleaned up? I was not aware if so. I will need to look into that.

 

I am also using a free tool called TimeMachineEditor which gives me the ability to change when TM will run and to disable the local snapshots entirely.....

 

timemachineeditor.jpg.fa009d5458fb79e22c4bca2eb0814ba6.jpg

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@skijumptoes - On the free space issue... And you probably know this already.... If the O/S is High Sierra or Mojave, the local snapshots that time machine creates will quickly fill up the drive. And, as a bonus, time machine doesn't actually manage the deletion of those snapshots very well. I periodically go in and remove the extraneous snapshots to free up more drive space. tmutil has a bunch of options that let you manage that process manually.

 

I just upgraded to Mojave this weekend, so please fill me in. I was under the impression that Time Machine is not using APFS yet. TM has always been making local "snapshots" behind the scenes for quite a while and it also automatically removes them and never reports that space as used up on the drive either. Did they change to something that is APFS based and not automatically cleaned up? I was not aware if so. I will need to look into that.

 

I am also using a free tool called TimeMachineEditor which gives me the ability to change when TM will run and to disable the local snapshots entirely.....

 

timemachineeditor.jpg

 

This may be an afps thing or High Sierra only, but on my 2018 MBP, the local snapshots eat a ton of space and do not get deleted in a timely fashion - even when I connect my time machine backup drive. The snapshots can eat a *lot* - many 10s of GB. If you google 'tmutil' you'll find a bunch of stuff about it. As an example....I had 1.5 GB of local snaps just from today - and that's *with* a backup drive connected.

 

As a bonus, the free space reported by the finder is a wildly inaccurate measurement due to the way that the local snapshots are kept. I can delete a couple of GB and the free space won't budge.

 

I'm still on High Sierra, since I've also got the USB audio bug that the MBPs suffer from and have some workarounds in place for my current O/S. Hoping that Mojave has sorted that issue in 10.4.6, but waiting to jump until I know for sure.

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so prior to APFS, many people were worrying about the local snapshot space, but its kind fo meaningless worry because the local snapshots were stored in a secret under the covers way, that's why you don't see them reported as used space in the finder, and in fact all of that unreported space usage is still available to you, it should not have any adverse effect, it was just using the space secretly as long as you're not using it. The tmutil utility shows a lot of space usage, but its not a big deal because if you need to write something with your apps, etc, the local snapshots will be summarily overwritten. So people were kind of obsessing about the space, but its kind of meaningless

 

Now with APFS, are these snapshots now using up space that is consuming your availability in the finder? I was not aware that tm was even using APFS at all, but maybe it is now? Its not clear from all the confusing posts on the internet that i have found on it this morning. I'm not too terrible concerned about whether TM is using APFS or something else to hide secret snapshots, as long as its not eating up my available space in the finder as was the case before High Sierra.

 

I have a lot to learn about APFS now...

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