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Why the 3rd Party Plugins hype?


SomeMusicKid44

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Ok,

 

I created this account just to kind of vent and see if anyone out there feels the same about this issue. At what point did 3rd party plugins overtake our DAW's stock instruments and effects? As a longtime logic user who has created hit songs featured on the billboard USA charts, I feel musicians are being marketed too and used as a commodity for 3rd party software companies more so today than ever before.

 

I'd say Logic's dynamics/compressors, EQ's, Reverbs and Delay's, Modulation and Pitch, Drums (Electric and Acoustic), Synths and Strings, are all top notch and can do the job at the professional level as I have witnessed myself. But I to, have fell for the trap of software companies marketing like "FLASH SALE $29 BLOWOUT" or "LAST MINUTE SALE THIS IS IT" etc etc.

 

95% of what I need to do can be done inside logic. 1-3 specialty plugins to pick up the slack where logic may not be strongest is certainly understandable. But for instance, Superior Drummer 3 has a massive drum library (over 200gb), but Logics Drum Kit Designer is just as good in the sound department. But SPD3 is $400? LPX as a complete DAW is only $299? Does this math make sense? This has been driving me crazy and I need to just let this frustration out at the audio industry.

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LPX as a complete DAW is only $299?

 

Only 199. A bargain considering what you get. No other DAW comes close. AND no iLok and NO subscription. You OWN it.

Let's see how long that one lasts...

 

Regarding the hype, it's great marketing of course.

Then you have to justify your purchase of that 3rd party plugin to everyone you know to feel good. Regardless of the fact if it will make your music sound better.

 

But that's how consumerism works. You gotta spend money.

 

Summarizing, I agree with you. Logic has enough tools to make a great record. But people need to criticize and bitch, otherwise what good is the internet, right?

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we have a choice, nothing wrong with that. i started with logic in 2009, using stock plugins. now, 95% of my plugins are 3rd-party (fabfilter, 3rd-party synths), and am perfectly happy.

 

we use what we choose to use, that's how it SHOULD work (but yes, you can certainly make great music with logic's built-in plugins).

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Ok,

 

I created this account just to kind of vent and see if anyone out there feels the same about this issue. At what point did 3rd party plugins overtake our DAW's stock instruments and effects? (...) Does this math make sense? This has been driving me crazy and I need to just let this frustration out at the audio industry.

Amen! I couldn't agree more.

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Well, everyone is entitled to build and sell the next big plugin, and if they succeed, hey, more power to them. This is a luxury economy. You will not die if you don't buy my plugin, and neither will I. So people are doing this on their own free will. That being said, Logic's native stuff is killer.

 

Then, the price of Logic has come down from above 1800.- with regular paid updates/-grades in the Emagic days to 200.- with free updates since Logic Pro X. By this, Apple readjusted its target group from only serious top professionals to that group and anyone who would fancy using a Mac, thereby largely increasing the user base and thus the number of people who will buy Macs, because Logic does not run on anything else. So, no update cost is just too tempting to not update, right ? And slowly but surely with all the new bells and whistles (ChromaVerb anyone?) you feel your computer is just not up to the task anymore and you consider buying a newer one. There you go. So the price is not 200.- but 200 + a serious pile of cash every couple years to stay afloat. But then, this is also purely voluntary.

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we have a choice, 95% of my plugins are 3rd-party (fabfilter, 3rd-party synths), and am perfectly happy..

 

Understandable! Curious though, would you say you use those 3rd party plugins because Logic is not capable of doing what they can do as far as the sound you can get from them? In a lot of cases what I've found is that 3rd party plugins have more attractive GUI's that may be tricking our little brains into believing somehow we are mixing with real 1176's or on a real SSL Desk or other analog gear. I can assure you from working with this kind of high end gear, we are not getting the sound of an 1176 or an actual SSL console. If you were, studios would sell all analog gear and just use plugins. I'm not saying the plugins sound bad, but they don't sound analog. People who have used analog gear know this.

 

I'm a guitar player and have played for decades, and I have NEVER heard a guitar amp sim sound like a real amp. Once you go down this rabbit hole you may not like what you find. Coming from someone who has spent literally thousands on plugins and software, I feel a bit silly like the women who go shopping 24/7 even though they don't need the stuff they are buying. Half the time they don't even end up wearing the stuff lol :) and I would bet if you pulled up old projects and songs you are actually going to use, all those plugins you buy are not gonna be what makes the song/track great. This is just my opinion though!

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we have a choice, 95% of my plugins are 3rd-party (fabfilter, 3rd-party synths), and am perfectly happy..

 

Understandable! Curious though, would you say you use those 3rd party plugins because Logic is not capable of doing what they can do as far as the sound you can get from them? In a lot of cases what I've found is that 3rd party plugins have more attractive GUI's that may be tricking our little brains into believing somehow we are mixing with real 1176's or on a real SSL Desk or other analog gear. I can assure you from working with this kind of high end gear, we are not getting the sound of an 1176 or an actual SSL console. If you were, studios would sell all analog gear and just use plugins. I'm not saying the plugins sound bad, but they don't sound analog. People who have used analog gear know this.

 

I'm a guitar player and have played for decades, and I have NEVER heard a guitar amp sim sound like a real amp. Once you go down this rabbit hole you may not like what you find. Coming from someone who has spent literally thousands on plugins and software, I feel a bit silly like the women who go shopping 24/7 even though they don't need the stuff they are buying. Half the time they don't even end up wearing the stuff lol :) and I would bet if you pulled up old projects and songs you are actually going to use, all those plugins you buy are not gonna be what makes the song/track great. This is just my opinion though!

 

i'm very selective about what i buy, but have enjoyed trying a lot of different synth plugins; i use about 6 at any given time, because... this is my thing: i like to change things up. so, twice a year i replace most of my synths, and i enjoy that, find it inspiring.

 

for my money, logic (i do like alchemy, btw) doesn't have something like cypher2, or zebra2... or sylenth1, icarus, arcsyn. and i have developed a good relationship with the sound AND the GUI of the fabfilter plugins (eq, comp, limit, etc). i really love them.

 

but that's just me. who cares who uses what? it's the music that matters, and how we get there isn't important; the music moves us... or it doesn't. meanwhile, as content creators, we use the tools we like, need (& can afford, lol).

 

whatever works.

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For AU effects Logic’s plugins are excellent. They won’t polish up bad audio recordings, but really nothing will. It’s been said many times before: that $1000 mic and $1000 preamp, the recording space, the knowledge and skill of the engineer and the performance and ideas of the artist are FAR more important.

 

BUT ...

 

When it comes to virtual instrument plugins, particularly top notch acoustic sounding ones, several outclass Logic. Pianoteq and Ivory are a significant step up from Logic’s exs piano instrument. As a piano player, this matters to me. For electric and acoustic bass and symphonic strings ... etc. there are similarly much better options than Logics instruments.

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and sometimes it's not a matter of 'better', but of 'different'; is a steinway piano better than a yamaha? only if the music being played is better....

 

EDIT: and so many variables. i used the garageband/logic 'grand piano' for years; not because it's the best (i like pianoteq better), but because it cut thru the electronics so well...

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for my money, logic (i do like alchemy, btw) doesn't have something like cypher2, or zebra2... or sylenth1, icarus, arcsyn. and i have developed a good relationship with the sound AND the GUI of the fabfilter plugins (eq, comp, limit, etc). i really love them.

 

Curious, how much did you spend on those?

 

I'm a guitar player and have played for decades, and I have NEVER heard a guitar amp sim sound like a real amp.

 

Couldn't agree more!

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for my money, logic (i do like alchemy, btw) doesn't have something like cypher2, or zebra2... or sylenth1, icarus, arcsyn. and i have developed a good relationship with the sound AND the GUI of the fabfilter plugins (eq, comp, limit, etc). i really love them.

 

Curious, how much did you spend on those?

 

I'm a guitar player and have played for decades, and I have NEVER heard a guitar amp sim sound like a real amp.

 

Couldn't agree more!

 

the fabfilter plugins? i bought a set (eq, comp, limit, gate, reverb, etc) on sale, about $450 for all...

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In the beginning some daw’s stock plugins were far far worse than what you could get third party.

 

Nowadays most daws come with more than adequate plugins to do most tasks. Sometimes the stock plugin falls a little short for a particular need and a 3rd party can get the results you’re after. Sometimes it’s just easier to get certain results from a particular 3rd party plugin than stock. And there are some third party plugins out there that are out of this world. Then there’s the specialty stuff too. But 99% of the 3rd party hype is just that... ‘hype’. Biggest problem is the market is so oversaturated it’s dofficuot to sort though it all.

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the fabfilter plugins?

 

No, the synths.

 

i have owned so many. some i bought, some i got in exchange for beta-testing and/or doing demos. some i have sold the license for (when i moved on). what difference does it make? i have enjoyed using (almost) all of them, and made some good (& great) music; for me, that's what matters (and that i've enjoyed the process)...

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what difference does it make?

 

It's ok if you don't wanna say it.

 

no, i just have no idea. we're talking almost a decade; some bought, some sold. some traded for work. but probably hundreds (not thousands). really, tho, what difference does it make? i mean, i'd have to make a list... :mrgreen:

 

EDIT: i've done demos and or beta-tested for all the tone2 synths, dune2, synthmaster, u-he, arcsynth, discovery pro, others. and sold licenses to many synths i've owned (embarrasing fact: have owned sylenth1 THREE times, ie sold the license twice; am back with it now, and lennard gave this one to me). so... too many variables to sort out.

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The only reason i'm asking is because it adds up.

All the 3rd party top synths are not cheap. I doubt they're 50 bucks a pop. I don't have them personally, so I don't know.

 

So when people bitch at Logic for not having enough sounds, I always go: but it's only 199 for the whole thing, what are you complaining about?

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The only reason i'm asking is because it adds up.

All the 3rd party top synths are not cheap. I doubt they're 50 bucks a pop. I don't have them personally, so I don't know.

 

So when people bitch at Logic for not having enough sounds, I always go: but it's only 199 for the whole thing, what are you complaining about?

 

the money part doesn't matter to me, i buy what i need. i like the synths (& effects) i use; i love working in logic, and would be using it if it were $1999 instead of $199. but i buy synth plugins for what they are, not because they're 'better' than logic's synths (athough, to be honest, i think they are); but that's just me, i speak for no one else.

 

again, none of this matters. we pick & choose our tools, and logic allows us to add as many AU's as we want. so, again, you use what you want, and i do the same. and, at the end of the day, a good EQ is a good EQ, whether it's logic's own, or fabfilter, or... whatever.

 

it's how we use our tools, and the end result, that matters most. would you agree?

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Well, while I totally agree that it's possible to get astounding (and very likely release-ready) results out of just the things coming with Logic, there's still plenty of room for improvements - which 3rd party plugin developers are a lot more into than the Logic crew. Just as a few examples of things I'm using every day:

 

- The entire sampling department. While EXS patches are nice to use once they're created (as the GUI of the plugin itself is extremely slick), the creation of them is a pure nightmare compared to other samplers. The same goes for Ultrabeat and Drum Machine Designer (which is just a sub-standard wrapper for the sub-standard UB anyway). They're horrible to deal with. I'm using Battery 3, which is around 10 years old already, too - and it's still running circles around the Logic offerings.

 

- The synths. Most of them sound pretty good, some even excellent. But they lack of options. There's only one, namely Alchemy, featuring a multistep envelope and a decent arpeggiator (and no, the MIDI plugin arpeggiator which you could use with any synth is *not* exactly decent by nowadays standards). And it's a CPU hog. Now take a look at, say, U-Hes Zebra 2 - and there's nothing like it in Logic, not even close (yeah, sure, Alchemy, at least somewhat, but the GUI pales in comparison, IMHO at least).

 

- The guitar amp stuff. Yes, some of the clean models are actually quite decent, but all the amps delivering overdriven tones are plain horrible. Even most freebies sound a whole lot better these days - and once you start comparing them to some of the better commercial offerings, you will never even remotely touch Logics amps ever again as they're a pile of noisy, non-dynamic garbage (sorry, but that's the only matching description).

 

- The FX. While most of them sound quite nice, they're usually just bread'n'butter. Try to find anything like the new (and IMO really nice) Valhalla Delay. Or like U-Hes MFM2. Just doesn't exist inside Logic. Same goes for things such as iZotopes Stutter Edit (or the most excellent MRhythmizer from Melda which I bought recently).

Sure, you can achieve a lot with chaining FX and running them in parallel - but that's defenitely not the same. And let's not even talk about pitch shifting...

 

In addition to that, and that's particular important for the sample based section (and partially for the synths as well): As the Logic plugins are proprietary, there's pretty much zero professional 3rd party patches. So, in case you need a specific string sound, a detailed sampled bass, another drumkit (and well, I only partially agree on the quality and usability of the DKD kits - just try to change the balance between a snare and a rimclick...) or whatever, forget about finding anything decent for Logics sample based plugins.

The same goes for synths. There's *gazillions* of absolutely great sounding and inspiring patches for the aforementioned Zebra 2. For the Logic synths, there's the internal patches and the odd find from some Logic forums.

 

And finally, if you stick with Logics plugins, you need to use Logic (or Mainstage) and a Mac. With my 3rd party plugins, I can use them in any host and on any platform. Which, no matter how you put it, is a good thing.

 

Fwiw, if it was after me, I'd prefer it a lot if the Logic team stepped back on delivering yet some more (partially mediocre, partially even rather bad) plugins and sample content and rather concentrated on the core functionality (there's plenty of room for improvements and tons of things that are either completely messed up or simply plain old bug city). And if they really want to add some more "content", please make me "wow" (I could imagine a thing or two...) instead of delivering the emperors new clothes.

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Yes, Logic has a wealth of content and you are more than able to complete projects with it.

 

But saying other options are pointless, not worth investing in, and Logic covers everything that you can do with third-party options suggests the OP doesn't have much experience with other options.

 

If Logic covers all *your* needs just fine, that's great, but don't assume everyone has the same requirements and tastes as you - we're all special flowers, and we all use different tools and instruments differently, and make different music...

 

Also, it's worth noting that some of us have been using, eg, Pultecs, 1176s, analog modelled synths, Alchemy/CamPhat/CamSpace etc etc etc for a long time *before* those things were added into Logic. Over time, bit by bit, the Logic team have brought many things that were only previously available as third-party plugins *into* Logic *because* people want them, they have value, and they do things that are desirable that Logic couldn't already do. If there were no third-party developers filling these gaps, Logic might look quite different today.

 

And this isn't even touching on the things that Logic can't do that are filled by third-party products.

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One plug-in that Logic could use is a good de-esser. I can't use Logic's de-esser without giving the singer a lisp. For that I like to use the Waves Rde-esser.

 

Yeah I agree with that. Updated Deeser would be great.

 

Recently I learned a pretty slick trick for deesing in logic with the compressor plugin using the side chain filters. If you use it right it can smooth out the harshness of vocals really nicely. Works much better than the stock Deeser for me so far.

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But saying other options are pointless, not worth investing in, and Logic covers everything that you can do with third-party options suggests the OP doesn't have much experience with other options..

 

Definitely not saying they are pointless. I myself use Keyscape to replace the Logic Pianos & Electric Pianos out of preference. I also use Antares products for Vocals as I have used that stuff since forever, and it get's the job done. Outside of that, I'm not sure where logic falls short at the moment?

 

My argument is not that 3rd party developers are useless or pointless, but that Logic in it's current state is so well put together that I believe producers/songwriters/artist should check the Logic workflow carefully, and see where in Logic 3rd party plugins might could improve your overall sound. For me it was Pianos/Electric Pianos and Vocal processing.

 

And as far as my experience with 3rd party plugins, I doubt you can name a developer I haven't used in the last 15 years. I've been through the ringer with 3rd party developers even scoring some free stuff as a producer/writer along the way.

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Ok, if you're basically saying that some people new to Logic have a tendency to run out and buy a plugin to do something Logic already does pretty competently, then yes. People don't read manuals, and often think that buying something is the quickest path to solving their problem, rather than taking some time/effort to explore what they already have.

 

You yourself already realise that you've chosen outside Logic for some use cases, and you see the value of it. Now extrapolate that to hundreds of thousands of other people, all making music in different styles.

 

I'm not going to start listing examples, there are far too many, but in EDM, for example, Logic falls quite short of some other apps in terms of loop based tools. I don't personally do a lot of it, so those shortcomings don't bother me too much - but plenty of people have their entire music workflow based around these things.

 

Logic's pitch editing tools are not nearly as good as Melodyne. Logic's sample library, and sample system are not nearly as good as Kontakt, in the breath and depth of libraries available. The sounds available in Logic for types of EDM don't come close to the breadth of stuff in things like Serum, Massive, Spire or Sylenth, and certainly don't have the character of some of those things.

 

Imagine walking into a well-equipped studio with your band. That studio has all the gear you need to make music. But perhaps you want a more vintage-sounding Rhodes than the modern one they have? Or maybe you fancy getting an old Fairlight in because you want to work on an eighties retro thing? That studio is not going to have everything in the world, and sometimes, you want to bring something else in for it's workflow, or flavour.

 

I can't see the problem with that.

 

If you're arguing that it's a bit silly to have 68 different compressors in your DAW, then I agree. But, different tools have different interfaces, workflows and flavour, and if other tools work better for you, even if they sound basically similar, who's to say you shouldn't use the tool that best get the jobs done for you..?

 

I think most people will be most productive with a core set of tools that covers their needs and tastes perfectly well, and then occasionally getting something new if it adds significantly to their workflow, or sparks some new creativity or inspiration. But sometimes this requires a bit of discipline, and it's generally easier and more fun to buy something new, than to strip down what you have. And some people have more money than time, or common sense. Human nature, and all...

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Well, while I totally agree that it's possible to get astounding (and very likely release-ready) results out of just the things coming with Logic, there's still plenty of room for improvements - which 3rd party plugin developers are a lot more into than the Logic crew. Just as a few examples of things I'm using every day:

 

- The entire sampling department. While EXS patches are nice to use once they're created (as the GUI of the plugin itself is extremely slick), the creation of them is a pure nightmare compared to other samplers. The same goes for Ultrabeat and Drum Machine Designer (which is just a sub-standard wrapper for the sub-standard UB anyway). They're horrible to deal with. I'm using Battery 3, which is around 10 years old already, too - and it's still running circles around the Logic offerings.

 

- The synths. Most of them sound pretty good, some even excellent. But they lack of options. There's only one, namely Alchemy, featuring a multistep envelope and a decent arpeggiator (and no, the MIDI plugin arpeggiator which you could use with any synth is *not* exactly decent by nowadays standards). And it's a CPU hog. Now take a look at, say, U-Hes Zebra 2 - and there's nothing like it in Logic, not even close (yeah, sure, Alchemy, at least somewhat, but the GUI pales in comparison, IMHO at least).

 

- The guitar amp stuff. Yes, some of the clean models are actually quite decent, but all the amps delivering overdriven tones are plain horrible. Even most freebies sound a whole lot better these days - and once you start comparing them to some of the better commercial offerings, you will never even remotely touch Logics amps ever again as they're a pile of noisy, non-dynamic garbage (sorry, but that's the only matching description).

 

- The FX. While most of them sound quite nice, they're usually just bread'n'butter. Try to find anything like the new (and IMO really nice) Valhalla Delay. Or like U-Hes MFM2. Just doesn't exist inside Logic. Same goes for things such as iZotopes Stutter Edit (or the most excellent MRhythmizer from Melda which I bought recently).

Sure, you can achieve a lot with chaining FX and running them in parallel - but that's defenitely not the same. And let's not even talk about pitch shifting...

 

In addition to that, and that's particular important for the sample based section (and partially for the synths as well): As the Logic plugins are proprietary, there's pretty much zero professional 3rd party patches. So, in case you need a specific string sound, a detailed sampled bass, another drumkit (and well, I only partially agree on the quality and usability of the DKD kits - just try to change the balance between a snare and a rimclick...) or whatever, forget about finding anything decent for Logics sample based plugins.

The same goes for synths. There's *gazillions* of absolutely great sounding and inspiring patches for the aforementioned Zebra 2. For the Logic synths, there's the internal patches and the odd find from some Logic forums.

 

And finally, if you stick with Logics plugins, you need to use Logic (or Mainstage) and a Mac. With my 3rd party plugins, I can use them in any host and on any platform. Which, no matter how you put it, is a good thing.

 

Fwiw, if it was after me, I'd prefer it a lot if the Logic team stepped back on delivering yet some more (partially mediocre, partially even rather bad) plugins and sample content and rather concentrated on the core functionality (there's plenty of room for improvements and tons of things that are either completely messed up or simply plain old bug city). And if they really want to add some more "content", please make me "wow" (I could imagine a thing or two...) instead of delivering the emperors new clothes.

 

 

Very well said.

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Over the years I've bought this and that from 3rd party effect plugin manufacturers but lately I've been intentionally selecting Logics stock plugins and finding them very capable and efficient.

Waves emails can be enticing with $29 deals but I now know what I need and what I don't. Benefits of getting old lol

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yep. Logic's included instruments and FX are amazing and outstanding and for the price, almost unbelievable. Anybody can make a worthy album now frankly, with $200 worth of software thanks to Apple. My first recording experience was with a 4 channel portastudio that could record 4 tracks onto a cassette tape and that's it...and it cost way more than $200. Just sayin'.....

 

That does not discredit many other software plugin offerings which often do take it to another level, either in terms of sound quality, or perhaps workflow that some may find enjoyable and useful. Logic doesn't do "everything" but it does do a lot. Many other 3rd party plugins provide really cool things that honestly are beyond Logic, but it doesn't mean you neccessarily need them to make great music. But you might want their workflow or in some cases the sounds they produce easily..

 

On the subject of EQ's and reverbs and all that, Logic's EQ's and reverbs are perfectly up to the task of record-worthy sound, especially in the hands of someone that knows what they are doing. In years past many incredible albums were produced entirely in the analog domain with far less capability then what Logic provides now. that being said, I would not think of doing what I do with VSL instruments without using MirPro, for example, or Eareverb is a close second. Regarding EQ, I bought some fabfilter stuff and I'm excited to use it, but honestly its more about workflow then sound, its just a brilliant GUI. However it does have dynamic EQ, which is not in LogicPro yet (right?). But no reason all the same couldn't be done in Logic with plain vannila parametric EQ's and multi-band compressors. Its just workflow improvements. I would not have paid full price for it, but on sale...sure why not.. (more on that in a minute).

 

Acoustic Piano? not so good in LogicPro...

 

etc.. it can definitely be improved with some 3rd party solutions. Are they strictly needed? In many cases no, but in some cases they do improve things and if you have the $$ to spend and can justify it, then why not.

 

But this all comes back to the whole topic about the never ending sales, promotions and constant pushing of music software candy to many users, most of whom are NEVER going to produce a hit record of any kind whatsoever. its a hobby for most. People spend money on a hobby, that's fine. But do we really need all this stuff? I think in many cases no. I think lots of times people are justing a new plugin because it has a cool looking UI (fab filter might come to mind there). somehow everyone thinks they need to newest gizmo to keep up with everyone else making music. while some of my dearest recordings ever were made on a 4 track porta studio and a guitar with a chorus pedal in 1980. Very little distractions when you simplify down the gear. But don't you worry, back then I was jonesing for a 16 track reel to reel and eventually got one...and the same sickness persists until today... (shrug)...

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I shudder to think of all the 3rd party software I've bought. I am also of the opinion that, while Logic is an amazing deal, it has weaknesses that I could only address with 3rd party stuff. I prefer T-rackS compressors and limiters to Logic's, for example. Logic's Drums are decent, better than any drum machine or JV1010 drums that I used to use, and I suppose I could be happy with that, but I prefer ADD2. As far as amp sims go, I get great results from Scuffham Amps, and I got it when it was about €69, I think. The only synth in Logic I really like is Alchemy, and it probably my favourite synth, including a number of 3rd party synths.

 

I think it would make a good exercise to have a contest allowing only Logic instruments and fx, or one could simply challenge oneself to try it.

 

But it all comes down to the composition. If that's a turd, it won't help to polish it to a high gloss with 3rd party stuff.

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