tracking levels....

when tracking through my nio audio interface into logic pro 9 I try to get recording levels as high as possible without clipping.

my friend however just emailed me a session where the levels were tracked at very low volume. the sound is still very good though. (the sliders are kept at around 0 dB) the wave form is close to non-existant when viewing the arrange window.

just wondering what everyone's take is on this method of tracking. do you care to keep levels just under clipping during tracking, or are you more like my friend and why?

thanks!

There's a big discussion on Gearslutz about this:

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/so-much-gear-so-little-time/463010-reason-most-itb-mixes-don-t-sound-good-analog-mixes-restored.html

And to let you know, one of the posters is Paul Frindle, he designed the SSL board.

And the worst thing you can do in digital is record hot. They recommend tracking between -20 and -10 on the meters.

I got hooked on that discussion.

wow no kidding!

i had no idea... thanks a ton man. i love this forum

I've read that entire thread at Gearslutz, and can tell you it does not apply to Logic. It applies to fixed point engines such as Pro Tools TDM. Logic is a floating point engine and all the arguments presented in that thread do not apply for us.

ALL OF THE FOLLOWING APPLIES TO LOGIC, AND LOGIC ONLY.

Having said that, then in Logic, recording "as hot as possible" seems like it would make sense. But in many situations it still doesn't. First of all when recording in 24 bits you are recording with more dynamic than your mic/mic preamp/AtoD converter can produce. That means you can safely turn down the recording level without losing anything, and with additional safety regarding digital clipping. In most cases there is no need to record peaking at 0 dB FS, or even at -1 dB FS. You can record peaking at -20 dB FS and you'll be totally fine.

I wouldn't change a thing on the recordings you were given. Use them as is. Try using the waveform zoom if necessary. The only disadvantage I can see with very low recording levels is a poor waveform reading when trying to edit audio.

This topic has been debated to death, and we always see strong proponents or opponents of one technique or another. At the end of the day, it will make much less difference as both camps think. I am less passionate about that discussion as I was 10 years ago, because I feel it tends to distract from much more important factors that really contribute to changing the quality of the performance you're recording.

So if I tracking a live recording off a mackie onyx mixer (pre amp levels will be more than what is needed to record into logic) I should put a gain plug in on all 16 channels and drop the level about -10 to -12 and I should be good?

A gain plug-in inserted on an audio tracks' channel strip won't change the recording level. The recording level is what reaches the input of your A/D converter. The A/D converters spits out zeros and ones which Logic puts in an audio file "as is" without touching them. Logic has no influence over the recording level. You adjust your record level on any analog equipment placed before the input of the A/D converter, i.e. mic preamp. Many audio interfaces contain both A/D converters and mic preamps, so you adjust your recording level with the mic preamp's gain knob.

The piug-ins inserted on an Audio track's channel strip only process the real time monitoring (during recording) and during playback, but not the recorded audio.

Got it. So I need to give my self some headroom by running the onxy pre's a little lower

than usual for analog live mixing so I don't clip any channels going into logic. The onyx has a master level adjust on the firewire card also. Guessing it might be better to tweek that back instead of the pre levels but not sure if that effects pre A/D level or post A/D level.

will download mackie manual and see if i can find out.

With any digital equipment I didn't know or trust completely I'd rather keep everyhing digital at unity (if we're talking recording only, since practical issues in other circumstances may necessitate fader adjustments).

Then I'd adjust the analog input level (the preamps) for a digital peak level of - 12 to -6 dBFS.

I'd keep the individual volume faders at unity, any processing or EQ off/bypassed (not just flat) and the master fader at unity, too.

This at least improves your chances of getting a better and clean signal into Logic.

It also means that what you see on your digital mixer should match exactly what you're seeing in terms of level inside of Logic.

If not, something is wrong.

The onyx has a master level adjust on the firewire card also. Guessing it might be better to tweek that back instead of the pre levels but not sure if that effects pre A/D level or post A/D level.

will download mackie manual and see if i can find out.

That won't really make a difference - not a good one at least. It's post A/D.

great stuff guys thanks a lot.

ive spent a few days reading and rereading that thread on gearslutz and it was very interesting to read and relate to mixes I've worked with. ...

but youre right, logic is floating point, and IME it's more important to use your ears to determine where clipping is occurring.

The best thing I've taken from these threads is that it does help to have the faders closer to unity (for sake of resolution). so with that in mind, I intend on tracking at lower levels on my adc

Can anyone explain a difference between "FLOATING POINT engine" (Logic) and "FIXED POINT engine" (ProTools) ?

Thanks

Can anyone explain a difference between "FLOATING POINT engine" (Logic) and "FIXED POINT engine" (ProTools) ?

 

Thanks

It could be a bit involved to explain.. this should get you started:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Floating_point

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fixed-point_arithmetic

Can anyone explain a difference between "FLOATING POINT engine" (Logic) and "FIXED POINT engine" (ProTools) ?

 

Thanks

 

It could be a bit involved to explain.. this should get you started:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Floating_point

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fixed-point_arithmetic

Thanks for useful info David. English is not my native language so I'll give my best to understand this explanation

Cheers.

I've read that entire thread at Gearslutz, and can tell you it does not apply to Logic. It applies to fixed point engines such as Pro Tools TDM. Logic is a floating point engine and all the arguments presented in that thread do not apply for us.

 

ALL OF THE FOLLOWING APPLIES TO LOGIC, AND LOGIC ONLY.

 

Having said that, then in Logic, recording "as hot as possible" seems like it would make sense. But in many situations it still doesn't. First of all when recording in 24 bits you are recording with more dynamic than your mic/mic preamp/AtoD converter can produce. That means you can safely turn down the recording level without losing anything, and with additional safety regarding digital clipping. In most cases there is no need to record peaking at 0 dB FS, or even at -1 dB FS. You can record peaking at -20 dB FS and you'll be totally fine.

 

I wouldn't change a thing on the recordings you were given. Use them as is. Try using the waveform zoom if necessary. The only disadvantage I can see with very low recording levels is a poor waveform reading when trying to edit audio.

 

This topic has been debated to death, and we always see strong proponents or opponents of one technique or another. At the end of the day, it will make much less difference as both camps think. I am less passionate about that discussion as I was 10 years ago, because I feel it tends to distract from much more important factors that really contribute to changing the quality of the performance you're recording.

You're right about Logic being floating point. However things get complicated when you start to use various plug-ins which may or may not internally process the data with as much precision. Which is why proper gain staging is usually advised. Also I understand that certain plug-ins especially 'analogue modelled' ones have sweet spots when it comes to levels.