| Soundproof panels. |
yamahadrums
Joined: 25 Jul 2008
Posts: 803
Location: Bulgaria
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 Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 4:12 am Post subject: Soundproof panels. |
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I live in apartment and have problems with the neighbors, although I have electronic drum set Roland TD-20. My neighbors are complaining from the noise which is reproduced by hitting the pads with drumsticks. Can you give me a suggestion about treatment of the room with not too expensive and efficient materials? Thank you in advance!
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shivermetimbers
Joined: 07 Jan 2007
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| Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 7:13 am Post subject: : Soundproof panels. |
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Aside from the actual noise of the pads being hit, what is you set sitting on?
Carpet won't be enough to deaden anything.
It could be possible that the combined sound is actually transmitting through the floor. I have that problem when I play my keyboard with headphones on. Pressing the keys transmits through the body of the keyboard, through the stand, through the floorboards, and all through that area of the house.
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yamahadrums
Joined: 25 Jul 2008
Posts: 803
Location: Bulgaria
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| Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 8:05 am Post subject: : Soundproof panels. |
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Yes, the set sits on a carpet. But I think the main problem are the walls. They are naked concrete with an armature inside, which makes them an excellent conductor of vibrations. That's why I think that if I cover the walls with some kind of soundproof material most of the noise will disappear. And the fact it's not a low frequency noise, which needs a treatment that is much more expensive, gives me some hope, that my investment will no make me bankrupt. 
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Scott Jackson
Joined: 02 Nov 2009
Posts: 1518
Location: Another World
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| Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 9:34 am Post subject: : Soundproof panels. |
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I've seen foam insulation panels at Home Depot (you can get them through other sources as well i.e. lumber yards etc.). The ones I've seen are 2'x4' (they can be as large as 4'x8') by either 1 1/2" or 2" thick. They're very light weight and easy to cut to size. Maybe you could purchase enough of these for your wall, buy some cheap fabric to cover them with and cover the wall with them. You could use all one color or get creative. Shouldn't be too costly either.
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fader8
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| Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 10:01 am Post subject: : Soundproof panels. |
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Can you move the kit away from that wall? Perhaps to the other side of the room? How close is it now?
If the sound transmission is caused by leaks/holes through the wall, eg plumbing , electrical, joist pockets, etc., then nothing you "hang" on the wall is going to fix it.
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yamahadrums
Joined: 25 Jul 2008
Posts: 803
Location: Bulgaria
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| Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 10:29 am Post subject: : Soundproof panels. |
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Well, the wall is pretty small. It's 3,20 x 5,50m. The height is 2,80m. The set is in the middle of the room, right behind my desk, which is placed parallel to the short side. The drums has nothing to do with there placement, I think, because 1 month ago they were placed on different place in the room. I'll blame it on the concrete walls.
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David
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| Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 11:21 am Post subject: : Soundproof panels. |
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The big misconception about sound-proofing is that it is kinda the same or just a bit more involved that sound treatment. It's not. It's a completely different game.
Sound treatment = modify sound reflections inside a room, with the goal of giving a listener inside the room the most neutral response possible.
Sound proofing = modify sound transmission from a room to the outside world, with the goal of lowering the outside sound level/inside sound level ratio.
Sound proofing is difficult, very involved, and quite expensive. The idea and method is about the same as water proofing. Think of your room full of water: how to you prevent the water from leaking? Surely a 2'x4' panel of waterproof material here and there isn't going to help - AT ALL! It's not a matter of "OK but at least it will get me started". No. Taking a 10'x12' room full of water and putting even twenty 2'x4' panels of waterproof material on the ceiling and walls isn't going to make the room even just a little bit more waterproof: the water will continue leaking from where it was leaking in the first place. Below the door, through the electrical boxes, vents, window cracks, hardwood floors, holes in the wall where you've put a nail/screw, etc etc.
So the first thing to do is to stop thinking in terms of sound treatment, and start thinking in terms of soundproofing. You'll go MUCH further if you start taking care of isolating the door frame, door handle, electrical outlets, screw/nail holes, window frames, etc etc... than by placing panels here and there.
Once you've taken care of all those holes, if you want to go further, you'll have to rip apart the walls and rebuild. Or don't rip apart and build over the top of what's there. But surely if you just put some sutff agains the wall but leave a 1" gap where two walls meet, you've achieved exactly... nothing.
In the end, I usually think that sound proofing a room in a house or appartment is way overkill, and too expensive or/and too involved. I recommend looking at alternatives such as getting a soundbooth, using headphones, scheduling your "loud" sessions around your neighboors schedules, renting commercial studios for drums, etc etc...
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yamahadrums
Joined: 25 Jul 2008
Posts: 803
Location: Bulgaria
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| Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 11:36 am Post subject: : Soundproof panels. |
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Thanks, David, but I know what I'm talking about. I want to isolate the incoming and outgoing noise and that's why I am talking about soundproofing. This is my biggest problem. And when I handle it I'll take care of room acoustics.
I always play drums with headphones. As I described already the problem is the noise produced by the drumsticks hitting the pads. This knocking is driving my neighbors crazy. I traded my acoustic kit for electronic just to realize, that I can't play at home. Somehow it's not fair.
I do not expect to achieve some great effect with cheaper materials, but lowering the outgoing sound on 50-60% will be success.
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fader8
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Joined: 13 Dec 2005
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Location: Lancaster, PA USA
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| Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 11:59 am Post subject: : Soundproof panels. |
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| yamahadrums wrote: | | I'll blame it on the concrete walls. |
And that would be your first mistake. We use concrete here all the time for roadway noise barriers. It's high weight and density make it very effective for blocking noise.
As David and I are telling you, you need to be looking for the holes. These can be a real pain to find. It may be an electrical outlet that's sharing a wall void with the neighbors outlet or drain pipe. When you find them, you need to fill them with something very high density. For example, automotive windshield caulk strip is a good low cost material for this.
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yamahadrums
Joined: 25 Jul 2008
Posts: 803
Location: Bulgaria
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| Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 12:30 pm Post subject: : Soundproof panels. |
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We have radiators in the block. It could be too. Pipes are going from first to the eighth floor. I'll try what you and David suggested to see if there is an effect. Thanks!
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metalmaiden
Joined: 21 Jan 2010
Posts: 36
Location: Pittsburgh, PA USA
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| Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 3:33 pm Post subject: : Soundproof panels. |
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It’s not a cure-all, but if you need a cheap fix, I would suggest putting some old mattresses up against the walls or hanging some heavy blankets (floor to ceiling) over the areas that leak sound. I’ve done this to dampen a second floor room that faces a noisy street for recording purposes and have gotten good results. Granted, I was dealing with mostly low frequency bleed-over from passing traffic. Not sure how effective this would be with respect to dampening the higher frequency sound of sticks striking pads, but it might be worth a shot.
Good luck!
\mm/
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shivermetimbers
Joined: 07 Jan 2007
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| Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 4:04 pm Post subject: : Soundproof panels. |
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It won't be cheap regardless of what you do.
I can't imagine the drum pads being that noisy to begin with although I have been in apartments where I feel like I am part of the neighbor's conversation.
Rather than deal with the walls, deal with the set itself. Enclose it so that the sound is isolated at the source. This means lifting the set onto sound proof material and place sound proof panels around the set. I would think that to be a much smaller area to confine.
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elik
Joined: 30 May 2007
Posts: 142
Location: Montreal, Quebec; Canada
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| Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 5:50 pm Post subject: : Soundproof panels. |
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I can empathize with yamahadrums. I used to have an electronic drum kit in an apartment and the downstairs neighbor would complain about the vibrations from me hitting the electronic kik drum pedal.
David is absolutely right of course about sound proofing versus sound treatment. But in this case, since it's just about the sound of the sticks hitting the pad, maybe just minimizing the noise rather than complete sound proofing might be adequate.
I would suggest hanging some packing blankets on the wall that you share with the complaining neighbor. This might just be enough to reduce the noise. Although it is by no means proper sound proofing.
Eli Krantzberg
PS: I have since purchased a detached house with a basement where I can play acoustic drums. I built some custom panels to fit inside the basement windows on the side of the house that is closest to the next door neighbors. It works perfectly in minimizing (not removing) the sound leakage!
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chrisbrownsound
Joined: 15 Apr 2006
Posts: 241
Location: London
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| Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 5:58 pm Post subject: : Soundproof panels. |
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The problem has nothing to do with "holes". It is entirely due to mechanical transmission, for which the only solution is acoustic de-coupling. This Wikipedia article explains it quite concisely:
| Quote: | Most vibration / sound transfer from a room to the outside occurs through mechanical means. The vibration passes directly through the brick, woodwork and other solid structural elements. When it meets with an element such as a wall, ceiling, floor or window, which acts as a sounding board; the vibration is amplified and heard in the second space. A mechanical transmission is much faster, more efficient and may be more readily amplified than an airborne transmission of the same initial strength.
The use of acoustic foam and other absorbent means are useless against this transmitted vibration. The user is required to break the connection between the room that contains the noise source and the outside world. This is called acoustic de-coupling. Ideal de-coupling involves eliminating vibration transfer in both solid materials and in the air, so air-flow into the room is often controlled. This has safety implications, for example proper ventilation must be assured and gas heaters cannot be used inside de-coupled space. |
You're welcome.
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David
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| Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 6:08 pm Post subject: : Soundproof panels. |
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| chrisbrownsound wrote: | | The problem has nothing to do with "holes". |
In most rooms, the first place where sound leaks from is holes. The first one being below the door. You can do all the mechanical decoupling in the world, if you leave the window open the sound is going to go out. Same thing for the big hole underneath the door, and the small holes around electrical receptacle.
Any good studio architect will tell you as much.
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chrisbrownsound
Joined: 15 Apr 2006
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Location: London
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| Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 6:14 pm Post subject: : Soundproof panels. |
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Maybe so, but yamahadrums is whacking drum pads. The acoustic energy is minimal. In this situation it's the mechanical energy that's freaking the neighbours. Any good studio architect will tell you as much.
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Last edited by chrisbrownsound on Sun Feb 07, 2010 6:20 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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David
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| Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 6:15 pm Post subject: : Soundproof panels. |
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| yamahadrums wrote: | | Thanks, David, but I know what I'm talking about. |
Hey yamahadrums, I wasn't trying to imply you didn't. Sorry if it came accross that way. I was just trying to say that soundproofing a room is more involved than just putting up "soundproofing panels".
In any case, if you're unsure, I recommend talking to a pro. A little consulting can save you lots of money.
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yamahadrums
Joined: 25 Jul 2008
Posts: 803
Location: Bulgaria
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| Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 8:52 pm Post subject: : Soundproof panels. |
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Hey, David, no problem!  I just thought I described the problem very well so it has become clear I am talking about sound proofing, not inside acoustic. I think most of you are right here. As what I have studied in the university the main leakage of this type of sound is due to vibrations. There is a lot of metal that connects me to the neighbors. It's an old panel block built in the mid 70's. One of the symbols of the socialism. The quality of the building is so crappy, so a few years ago when I removed the old parquet I found there were two big holes around the radiator pipes with 20 cm in diameter leading to the basement. And I was wondering all the time where these giant cockroaches are coming from.
I can hear when my neighbors fart. Zero isolation. The neighbor I am talking about is a taxi driver and is working at night. He sleeps all day long, which makes drumming impossible. Anyway, thanks again to all of you. For now I'll try to isolate all the holes and the door frame. The next step will be covering the walls with blankets, heavy and thick. What about the ceiling?
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Matt Mayfield
Joined: 12 Feb 2007
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Location: St. Paul, MN
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| Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 10:31 pm Post subject: : Soundproof panels. |
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I put my electronic drum kick assembly on one of these:
http://www.auralex.com/sound_isolation_gramma/sound_isolation_gramma.asp
that I found for $30 US at a used music store. I haven't asked my downstairs neighbors, but there have been no complaints.
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yamahadrums
Joined: 25 Jul 2008
Posts: 803
Location: Bulgaria
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| Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 10:39 pm Post subject: : Soundproof panels. |
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The problem is not only the kick. They can hear each pad. So this won't help at all. But thanks!
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