For Quad Core PPC G5 Logic Pro Users

hey how is everyone. I am just here spreading the word on a issue regarding Logic Pro and the Quad Core PPC G5. I have started posts on other forums and have quite a good response so far. Late last night I did some research and found alot of email address for important people at Apple from Steve Jobs, to hardware manager to developers to support managers etc. I am going to paste the list below I am asking that if fellow G5 Quad owners send a email maybe just maybe we can get this issue resolved. Tell them how you feel.

 

[edited by admin: please don't post people's email addresses]

What issue are you talking about? I own two of them...

He's talking about the fact that Logic Pro 7 doesn't support all 4 processors on the Quad G5 - only 2 of 'em.

 

Yet v7.2.2 supports all four CPU's on the new Mac Pro's . . .

I understood the new 7.2.2 update also supported alle processors of the PPC Quads (the reason why I bought two for my studio in the first place!!!)???????

 

If this isn't so... i'll be phoning Apple in an instance!

It only addresses Intel quads I'm afraid...

i'll be phoning Apple in an instance!

 

Please let us know what they say . . .

yes. please do.

This is disturbingly annoying news

 

keep us all up dated !

It's news to me that it's news!

 

I thought everybody knew(s) . . .

yes this whole situation sucks, I've had two threads I started and posted in deleted by apple recently in relation to this. No, not because of bad language, just because I voiced my opinion, and others wrote that they too had previously had threads deleted on this issue by apple at the logic forum.

 

It is not in fact that logic can only use two processors, it's weirder than you think. Logic uses no more than 50% of each processor across the board, it's like it has some kind of in built rev limiter that won't let it go past a certain point.

 

The question is does anyone with a quad actually have 7.2.2 installed and confirm that the quad core performance issue is not resolved by thsi update, I haven't found anyone who has said either way from actual direct experience.

It's true. Numerous posts on the Apple Logic forum related to this very issue have been deleted wholesale. There is even a thread where the only thing the poster did is list the link to Logic feedback, with commentary that it would be a good place to request a change to Logic's coding to allow it to take advantage of the full processing power of a Quad. This thread was locked, so of course it sinks to the bottom.

 

The deleting of threads related to the Quad/Logic issue included some containing very astute observations by some of the key members of that forum about this issue. So it's unfortunate that a lot of the key information and observations are now lost. But the bottom line is that the Quad, running Logic, will only max out at 200% across 4 processors. That's my understanding of it.

I suppose I got kicked off on my own thread I started after I said that I was going to advise my friend to get legal advice and write a letter to apple about it. I mean you don't buy a house where they forget to put a door in so you only get access to half the house, or a V8 car where the software isn't updated so you only get access to 4 cylinders, or 8 cylinders at half fuel flow - it's just LAME.

 

This is the most dispicable thing I've witnessed apple do and I've used their machines since the Apple IIe. I only changed to Logic to use EXS24 with VSL, and now that is redundant since VSL (vienna symphonic library) has it's own virtual instrument interface - I might go back to Cubase after this debacle. It might be less efficient theoretically but if it uses all four cores, it will still be more efficient for us and be able to run more than Logic.

mpower, having read your somewhat OTT post on Cubase.net. about your potential switch to Cubase, I wonder if you've posted here about your Logic issues? I'm sure with the help of the good people here, they could be resolved quickly . . .

 

Let's face it, not supporting all 4 cores is not something Apple have intentionally set out to do, it's something they haven't yet implimented or fixed.

 

I'd like to think they fixed this in the Intel version whilst they were getting the app 100% Intel-ready, and are now updating the PPC version . . .

 

And while Cubase just may allow you to run more plug-ins at a higher latency, Cubase's low latency performance is comparatively pretty poor - in fact some people even switch off 'Multi-Processor Support' in Cubase to get better low-latency performance. In Cubase, multi-processor support ON carries a CPU overhead with it which prevents decent low-latency performance.

 

I'm sure there are reasons why your experience of Logic's performance is poor. Perhaps something to do with Altiverb on your live inputs, and most likely nothing to do with the current lack of 4-CPU support . . .

mpower, having read your somewhat OTT post on Cubase.net. about your potential switch to Cubase, I wonder if you've posted here about your Logic issues? I'm sure with the help of the good people here, they could be resolved quickly . .

 

OTT as in over the top. I admit I'm PEED OFF about it, yes, it's understandable. If you paid for a quad, and only got the use of half the machine, you'd be peed off too man, when you could have bought a dual and saved your money, getting it to work now only lessens the sting it doesn't heal the wound. My considering switching to cubase is partly based on the fact that I already own version 1 and the upgrade includes version 1 to version 3, so I would only pay around $170 USD for the upgrade. But I have decided not to do that yet anyway, at least not until I'm confident it would be worthwhile, no point it paying the upgrade if I never use it even if that upgrade is relatively small.

 

Let's face it, not supporting all 4 cores is not something Apple have intentionally set out to do, it's something they haven't yet implimented or fixed.

 

Both you and I don't necessarily know that for certain either way and for both positions, that is arguable, so lets not. I don't know, and I accept that you may be right, but the opposite may be true. It doesn't add up for me, the time, the fact Apple owns the software and the hardware, and it's not fixed? the only explanation on their side is the fact that it's old code in the beast, that may get them off the thook but not forever.

 

I'd like to think they fixed this in the Intel version whilst they were getting the app 100% Intel-ready, and are now updating the PPC version . . .

 

Of course I hope you're right, I really do, it just seems strange that Logic is running actually on four cores, just only a max of 50% on each core - that is especially weird, in fact it cuts out at around 40% average a lot of the time.

 

And while Cubase just may allow you to run more plug-ins at a higher latency, Cubase's low latency performance is comparatively pretty poor - in fact some people even switch off 'Multi-Processor Support' in Cubase to get better low-latency performance. In Cubase, multi-processor support ON carries a CPU overhead with it which prevents decent low-latency performance.

 

Hmmm that I can't attest to, it's the low latency use of logic that has me very unhappy - I find plogue bidule much better as a live instrument it actually plays ivory piano + altiverb together in a real time fashion without latency (perceived anyway) and it's wonderful at last I can play these two plug ins together like I intended when I bought them. Logic chokes at 128 buffer setting with nothing else loaded. Pretty bad but as I said, I can't compare modern cubase with that I don't know. In fact I checked it out more specifically bidule runs at 256 but has no latency, I don't know why, logic at 256 even with all the buffers set to low etc, on a clean start, big latency with the same plugins.

 

I'm sure there are reasons why your experience of Logic's performance is poor. Perhaps something to do with Altiverb on your live inputs, and most likely nothing to do with the current lack of 4-CPU support . . .

 

the quad machine doesn't even have altiverb installed. I'm talking about running virtual instruments and logic maxing out at less than 50% on activity monitor cpu. I'm not going to get into the specifics of this it is a generally established and well known issue in a lot of these forums right now of logic not supporting quad g5's properly - only getting half the pwoer, it is also a well established point that a dual 2.7 will outperform a quad 2.5 with logic pro because of this issue this shows you the power difference we're talking about. It's simply NOT fair.

 

Now, if you want to make valid points that's one thing but frankly I'm tired of a number of people who have replied to my, yes I admit it somewhat inflamatory posts, (edit: ha ha this reads funny I meant to say "I feel the annoyance I feel is justified on this issue) don't seem to be actually contributing except to be in a defensive position. So let me just say and I think I would speka for most G5 quad owners on this issue, I don't give a rats behind about PPC vs Intel, or Cubase vs Logic, I only care that a quad machine was bought and paid for at extra expense, and worse performance than a dual 2.7 was achieved because of a lack of software integration by Apple. The fact is that both the software and hardware were purchased together in what I would call "an act of good faith" that in good faith we assumed quite naturally - and god I hope nobody argues that point - that apple would update logic to run on the quad machine - it was even less of a leap of faith, one would imagine, because they had already done the work to get it running on a dual, and one would *assume* at that time, leaping to a quad or larger system wouldn't be that much of a big deal. Yes it is valid that it may be more technically complex that us lay people assume, however that is not our problem, they should have said at the time ******disclaimer we don't know if we ever CAN or ever COULD be bothered to get logic to use these extra two cpu cores, so buy at your own risk, unless you use it for things other than logic like final cut (no we don't use final cut thanks).

How is your PDC set in Logic?

 

Full PDC on everything could account for extra latency. Something does.

 

The reason I'm asserting that Apple haven't prevented Logic from running on 4 CPU's is this: originally Logic would have been - like all Mac OS app's in the past, and indeed like Live! until recently - a single-threaded application, incapable of spreading its CPU load over more than a single CPU.

 

It's only since the advent of Dual CPU Mac's - and even more recently the Quad - that multi-threaded applications have become desireable.

 

Where are you getting your information that Logic is using 50% of all 4 cores? From Logic's System Performance window, or from Activity Monitor?

 

Something's not adding up . . .

PDC on or off, same deal I've tried it.

Activity monitor shows about 40% of cpu average across four cores more or less equally, monitor in logic is red lining.

yes this whole situation sucks, I've had two threads I started and posted in deleted by apple recently in relation to this. No, not because of bad language, just because I voiced my opinion, and others wrote that they too had previously had threads deleted on this issue by apple at the logic forum.

 

It is not in fact that logic can only use two processors, it's weirder than you think. Logic uses no more than 50% of each processor across the board, it's like it has some kind of in built rev limiter that won't let it go past a certain point.

 

The question is does anyone with a quad actually have 7.2.2 installed and confirm that the quad core performance issue is not resolved by thsi update, I haven't found anyone who has said either way from actual direct experience.

 

I have the 7.2.2 update installed on my G5 Quad and it doesn't support all 4 processors.This is really disapointing...I bought the machine for this reason in the first place. Please someone send me a link or emailadres to contact apple because i'm really planning to get some legal advice on this and confront Apple with it.

http://www.apple.com/feedback/logicpro.html

I have the 7.2.2 update installed on my G5 Quad and it doesn't support all 4 processors.This is really disapointing...I bought the machine for this reason in the first place. Please someone send me a link or emailadres to contact apple because i'm really planning to get some legal advice on this and confront Apple with it.

 

Thanks a lot for that answer, so it's true it really doesn't update the G5's.

 

I think all Quad owners should consider a joint suit against Apple. I'm certainly advising my friend to get a lawyer to at least write a letter. The bottom line is that they are legally not on solid ground on this one. At least if you bought a quad, specifically for use with logic, you have been ripped off. If you were told it would be optimised by the sales person, then you were doubly ripped off right in your face and slapped there too.

 

I'm incredibly disappointed in this, and it's greatl interrupted our work flow here, where we can't use the quad like we hoped and it's crapping it's pants on the larger projects which are frequent, when it should not, I knew that a dual wouldn't cope with what we wanted to throw at it, and for that reason I told my partner to buy a quad as we would need it, I was right. This is just a major let down, we should have bought a dual and said to ourselves "well, these new quads are good in theory but useless in real life. I just wish I had known Apple would have done nothing about the quad issue and just sweep it under the carpet. Some people are still hanging on to "i'm sure they'll fix it". Maybe, and lets hope so but if they do can anyone say that it would not be because of all this kind of posting over the forums and the many p'ed of people who have caled up to complain.

If all you're interested in is moving on with your work, why not simply install the Node application, use the 4 processors on your Quad and move on?

If all you're interested in is moving on with your work, why not simply install the Node application, use the 4 processors on your Quad and move on?

 

Well maybe you can help with that then?

 

We only want to do one thing on that machine, run the Vienna Instruments software instrument. Can that be run on both the main program and the node, because essentially it is that program that is using all the processing power. There is a lot of midi going on, about 60 - 100 tracks (although presently we have to freeze after about 35 tracks of midi) some of it very fast orchestral runs and generally a lot of fast midi playing live into Vienna Instruments, so there is the midi/sequencer side, and then the software instrument side, essentially nothing else is running except for one or two master space designer plug ins to compose with, then we print everything once the composing is finished and import to the dual G5 for mixing - and get started on more composing on the quad. Will the node be practical in this case?

 

One thing that is really very important is to be able to play in - perform - parts live right up until the final stages, ie when the machine is probably nearly maxed out. 256 buffer setting is acceptable, and although he's got a masters in performance on the piano and can actual do some amazing playing even with the buffer at 1024 (I don't know how he does that) at the end of the day, it's a less than ideal way to perform, and would be better if it were at a max of 256, or worst case scenario, 512 if you know what I mean. So again will the node app help in this case.

 

I was thinking more along the lines of using an app like bidule to run VI - hopefully VI (vienna instruments) can then access all four cpu cores, and logic can just run like a sequencer. I would guess that logic would then only use a max of 25% of cpu resources for sequencing midi only and the rest could be used by VI then. The other way to do this is to use a completely different app for seqencing *and* hosting like DP or cubase, but we don't have the money to throw away or the time to relearn another app - but if it means we get full use of the hardware, it might be the way to go. One issue is that we are moving away from printing tracks for the mix process, and if I can get the money for a new machine later, like a quad xeon, I can load the logic or dp or cubase or whatever files, and mix in real time, without printing to save a lot of time. Printing 60 tracks takes ages, one at a time, and if the tracks are real time or live in the mix we can make last minute timbral or note changes to fit the mix rather than being stuck with it or having to go back and print tracks again. Anyway - that is for later this year but the point is that we both have to be on the same page with host software for that reason and so if we buy dp we both have to buy dp and be happy with it. Here are the plug ins I must have what ever platform we go to (including be it the logic node) - altiverb stereo (no surround work yet) - Waves 5 platinum native - I can live without everything else in logic.

I'm also disappointed for Apple not fixing the issue of not using 100% of all 4 processors in my G5 Quad, but I really HOPE in a fix (maybe in 7.3 or 7.2.3).

From what I read on other forums DP, Cubase, Reason, Live and others are already optimized for G5 Quad, so it shouldn't be very difficult to change this strange behaviour.

And regarding the use of Logic Node, for me is of no help: I use VSL Complete Pro Edition in Exs24 format (not the new V.I.), and what I need is not more fx processing, but more exs24 simultaneous instruments.

I 'm in total agreement with Mpower on this,...

 

This is my first venture into recording equipment, and having done a fair bit of research before buying, I thought I was getting what I paid for !

I wanted the Quad over the Dual as I need to track with up to 20 mics.

I now feel Apple have deliberately 'mis sold ' the Quad,.... It really amounts to robbery IMO.

 

After all, as Mpower states, we could have saved our cash and bought the Dual .

 

NOT IMPRESSED

If all you're interested in is moving on with your work, why not simply install the Node application, use the 4 processors on your Quad and move on?

 

 

Could you post an outline of using the node application internally to access the other 2 cores?

I think he should have been more clear on this. The node workaround is very limited. It only works on instrument and audio tracks, not on buses, aux, or master faders, and it doesn't work with exs24. That said, if it works for you great, personally I think calling it a fix is the wrong thing to call it.

 

What you do is simply set up the node on your machine as you would on another machine. Download the latest node application, install it, run it (it does nothing just runs in the background you should see it on your dock), open logic, go into your logic preferences audio page, go ino nodes, you should see your own computer there, click activate nodes or whatever is there, you have to reboot core audio, then click the box next to your own computer name, then in the arrange window click view, and there is a menu item there to show node tabs or something like that, once you've done that, then click the node square on the track (next to mute, freeze buttons on the tracks etc) to make that track a node track - processing will be offloaded to the node application which should use the remaining available cpu power of your machine.

 

By the way we just had a thread about this issue get deleted once again from apple discussions which I thought would happen but *just for that* I saved the most recent one I could and am posting it herehttp://homepage.mac.com/mpower88/disc/aple1.pdf If anyone is a Quad owner using mainly Logic, you might like to read this to find out just what the story is. Basically Logic doesn't work on the Quad machines, even though there are people out there who are posting otherwise, and saying that the node thing is a fix, or whatever, the fact is that Logic is basically stuffed on the Quads, and it actually run marginally slower than a dual 2.7 G5 which is just disgusting that Apple have sold these machines to people that run like that.

Edited September 4, 2006 by mpower

"Basically Logic doesn't work"

 

What?

I edited it. I mean on the Quad G5's.

C'mon, Logic still works even on a Quad. True enough, it doesn't utilize more than two processors, but it still works.

Well, you know what I mean. It doesn't work properly I suppose I should say. I'm pretty furious about this issue I suppose that's what I'm really saying, it doesn't work properly, not even close, on the quads, we paid for it to - not impressed. But you're right, I should say things as they are not exaggerate.