external effects & latency compensation = new problem

i'm currently facing a new , very strange problem with latency compensation for external effect devices. it alway worked fine for me but suddenly there are strange things going on. i'm suddenly running into problems when using sends which feed auxes going to external effect devices.

 

latency compensation is set to ALL !!!

 

easy setup :

 

- open an empty project and create 2 audioinstrument tracks. on the first one load the exs with a drumkit and record f.e. a bassdrum pattern. leave the 2. instrument empty.

 

- now on the first audio instrument create a send to bus 1 -> aux 1 and insert the i/o plug-in in the aux and route it to your external effect device. chose a temposynced delay.

 

- press play = everything is fine when audioinstrument 1 is highlighted in the arrange.

 

- press stop, click on the track with the 2. audioinstrument and press play = totaly weird timing problems. delay is only in sync when track 1 is highlighted.

 

- create a send in the 2. audioinstrument and route it to bus 1 -> aux 1 too = still the same problem

 

now insert ANY softwareinstrument in audioobject 2 and suddenly the timing for the delay is right.

 

go ahead and create a 3. audioinstrument track but leave it empty first. chose it in the arrange = again weird timing problems with the external delay.

 

insert any software instrument on audioinstrument 3 = still the same problem

 

now create the send to bus 1 -> aux 1 in audioinstrument 3 and guess what, timing is right.

 

wtf is going on here ? can anyone reproduce that ?

 

it works fine when using sends which feed auxes with software effects inserted.

 

funny thing is, when i go to the environment and change aux object one to bus object 1 and insert the same i/o in it it works !!!

 

very very strange, please tell me i'm not crasy and this is a bug !!!

 

as said, latency compensation is set to all.

 

i'm using the mac pro 3.2 8-core running os 10.5.4, logic 8.0.2 and a motu pci-e audio system.

 

 

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I suspect, without actually analyzing your project file, that you're sometimes creating circumstances which are causing the signal to be more or less in sync. The nature of Logic 8's PDC is to advance signal on instruments and audio tracks and to delay it on auxes and outputs.

 

In any case, PDC does not compensate for an external effects path. How could it? It has no idea what the delay through that path is. To fix this, you need to download and install this free plug:

http://www.expert-sleepers.co.uk/latencyfixer.html

 

I've also attached a project file that makes the alignment process easy. It contains a short blip, only a few samples long, half a waveform, positive only, on two mono tracks. These 2 tracks are panned hard left and right, but track 2 has the I/O plug.

 

Set up the IO plug to go through the ext device. Just mono is fine. Bounce the session. You'll end up with a stereo wav file with one channel undelayed and the other delayed. Open this stereo file in the sample editor and snap the cursor to one point on the left wav, then drag the selection to the same point on the right wave. The info will be showing you the number of samples as you do this. Write down that number.

 

Instantiate Latency fixer on your track with the IO plug and set the samples to the number you wrote down. Latency Fixer will now report that sample delay to Logic's PDC system as though it were an AU plug-in. Bounce again and they should perfectly line up this time.

 

You've just "pinged" your external effect rig. Note that the sample delay through this path could change if you patch different hardware in.

 

Good luck!

IO_Sync.zip

hey man,

 

thanks a lot for your answer. i know about pdc and how it works but this seems to be a bug related to the i/o plug-in in auxes so your tip won't help me in that case.

 

i just did a clean install on a fw-hd with os 10.5.1, logic 8.0.0 and the motu pci-e driver and get the same results.

 

it must be somehow logic-related caus it works if you use busobjects instead of auxobjects.

 

maybe you can try to reproduce it, it only takes 2 minutes.

I have a question.

 

Are you saying that you have been doing this for sometime and now, suddenly, it is NOT working the way it used to?

well, to be honest, i only used reverbs from external effect devices so far and did temposynced effects with plug-ins.

 

yesterday i wanted to use a delay from my orville and realized that problem.

 

as said, after a clean install with os 10.5.1, logic 8.0.0 and the motu driver only i'm having the same problem.

also i used a template created in logic 7 so far and so i had busobjects for the external i/o. these still work but with logic 8 they changed the aux behavier as we all know and when i try to use auxes instead of busobjects i'm getting the problem.

also i used a template created in logic 7 so far and so i had busobjects for the external i/o. these still work but with logic 8 they changed the aux behavier as we all know and when i try to use auxes instead of busobjects i'm getting the problem.

 

The manual does clarify that Logic has no control over most any thing outside of its internal domain. It does explain the use of an External insert to help out some.

See the note on pg 852 of the LS8 manual.

thanks for your help, i think the manual doesn't help here. the point is that it works when the instrument with the active send is highlighted and that it doesn't work if you click on any track that does not have the send in it.

 

also it works when u use busobjects instead of auxobjects.

 

so it doesn't seem to be a problem with latency, the i/o plug-in or external devices in general, it realy seems to be a bug.

 

i know about the latency fixer and what it does and i also know about most things logic can do/ can't do cause i use it daily for 15 years now.

 

so please do me a favor and try it for yourself if you have any external effect device and you will see what i am talking about.

 

i know it's a specific setup but it realy only takes 2 minutes to reproduce it. if the setup is not clear to anyone please feel free to ask me.

OK, this is indeed odd. It also seems to have nothing to do with PDC either, as the symptom remains even with PDC off. It also doesn't seem to relate to whether the instrument is in Live Mode or not.

 

Even stranger, if I set the bpm to say, 5, and turn cycle on and let it cycle 4 or 5 times thru a couple of bars, then it suddenly goes back in sync. Stop, then play again and it's out of sync. Set it back to 100 bpm and it doesn't behave that way, just stays out of sync. I'm doing this with just a quick pulse per bar, EXS24.

 

I absolutely cannot figure out how this could be happening. It is a strange bug, but it would seem the workaround is to be sure to have a send instantiated on all your instrument tracks, even though nothing is actually being sent on them.

 

So yup, I'd say it's a bug.

thank's a lot for trying !

 

I already thought I was crasy.

 

this seems to be a really heavy bug cuase it makes working with auxes and the i/o plug-in totaly useless.

 

I'm gonna try to report this to apple, hopefully someone will listen ...

 

 

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this seems to be a really heavy bug cuase it makes working with auxes and the i/o plug-in totaly useless.

Yes, it's a bother, but selecting all your instruments in the Mixer and invoking a null send isn't that bad a workaround. As long as you remember to do it.

yeah, that works if you only have one send to external efx but i'm using 7 so it seems like i would have to set 7 sends in every chanel which is seems too much for me.

 

i'm working with bus objects again and it works if u set it up once in your autoload.

To be honest, I LOVE my Logic and have been a POWERuser since the mid 90's but Logic absolutely sucks that way. I'm sad to say because I mix using hardware almost exclusively.

 

I fairly recently went from mixing on my console to hybrid mixing having my entire system set up so I can insert console channels (with dedicated hardware inserted on them) in Logic channelstrips via the I/O plugin.

 

It's ridiculous and an outrage that Logic doesn't support insert of hardware in this manner now that they do have the I/O plugin.

 

I'm testing Cubase these days to see if I will have to move to Cubase for mixing this way. Cubase does have this thing fully controlled.

 

You set up your hardware in Cubase's VST Connections panel where you tell the program where everything is hooked up. Then all your hardware is readily available in the plugins list.

 

You can then just insert it like any other plugin. You would then actually choose "1176 #1" in your External Plugins list as opposed to Logics I/O plugin where you have to set it up every time.

 

The plugin can than ping your hardware and compensate automatically.

 

Once you've pinged it, you can see the delay displayed in microseconds.

 

Then go back in to the VST Connections panel and enter that delay time for all hardware setups.

 

That's it! You're done and it just works and it's sample accurate. You can compress in parallel and everything.

 

I'm experiencing the exact same things as Trancekid and others and I have had to come up with workarounds too.

 

Like letting all channels have their outputs assigned to busses, only inserting dry hardware effects on those busses, inserting wet effects on Aux channels, routing all audio and instrument channels to Bus 1 with a sample delay inserted dialed in to the correct delay time to manually compensate for the latency.

 

I've also tried inserting a sample delay on all channels to start with dialed in to the latency time. Then when I insert hardware I replace the sample delay with the I/O plugin. But how about groups then? Well I found workarounds there too, but it just goes oooon and oooon and oooon and it's simply NOT what we're used to as Logic users. And it's not even the same latency on audio channels, busses and aux channels!!

 

Logic is supposed to be the industry standard but we must see ourselves surpassed by Cubase and even Reaper for Christ's sakes. Even Reaper have this latency compensation up and running. It's not precise enough for parallel compressing yet but they're getting there soon I'm sure.

 

WAKE UP, APPLE!!!

 

All this works like a charm in Cubase 4. Inserts on groups while sending to that group from channels with AND without hardware already inserted and even when I route another group to that group with and without hardware inserted and with hardware inserted on that other group!!!

 

It's proven! It CAN be done!

 

Apple has GOT to get this sorted out NOW!

 

Don't accept having to be creative in coming up with workarounds! They got to get it together!!

 

Now!

 

PS: I hope my english is good enough for everybody to understand my posts...

I might be waaay too simple with my approach but. I use reverbs externally, as you've noticed the latency isn't an issue.

 

Just this morning I had my Echoplex Delay routed through an i/o plugin, being as there is no digital readout anyway. I just slid the tempo slider around until the delay was in time..

won't this approach work? just using your ear to match the time of your echo?

 

old school baby !

Yeah that works great with a delay maybe but Lucky Tune is trying to use a 1176. They don't make any tempo slider on compressors. I think Lucky Tune is making a very very valid point.

opps,.. sorry,. I feel sheepish ':oops:'. I agree.

 

I'd still rather use Logic than Nuendo,...

 

I do,.

I havent used these. Bundle costs ~30€. I would like to know if these work for somebody, since i will be working w/ External gear in the future, when my Audio Interface and Patchbay system is ready.

 

--

 

"The LATENCY BUNDLE is a tool for measuring and compensating latency, purpose-built for Logic Pro*..."

 

The LATENCY DETECTOR

 

Use the LATENCY DETECTOR to measure the delay time caused by your I/O Plug-Ins. You can measure mono or stereo channels.

 

 

The LATENCY COMPENSATOR

 

Use the LATENCY COMPENSATOR to tell the sequencer the delay time you want to compensate for. If you set up - let's say - 282 samples, the whole track will be shifted 282 samples forward in time.

 

 

The IMPULSE GENERATOR is an AU Generator.

 

Each time the sequencer is started, it emits a sample accurate impulse, a so called Delta Impulse. This impulse is used by the LATENCY DETECTOR to measure the delay in the signal flow.

 

 

https://www.artificialaudio.com/pluginmenu/1

I havent used these. Bundle costs ~30€. I would like to know if these work for somebody,

Yes, working here.

@PMcC

I see you realized the misunderstanding, but I just want to say that although it doesn't appear to be a problem with reverbs it actually is. Not as big a problem but you still get kind of an extended predelay. That to me is annoying too. I work a lot with shaping early reflections just right and a couple of milliseconds actually means that all my presets are now off by that amount of time. My Roland R-880 does change character with just 1-2 milliseconds of difference of predelay.

 

No it's no biggie, and I could live with it if that was the only problem it created for me.

 

There's also a third party plugin called Latency Fixer. I tested it and that works too.

 

My point is that it shouldn't be necessary with third party plugins like that when you're running a program like Logic.

 

The reason I'm carrying on about this like I am is that I refuse to let them sit back and think twice about this.

 

We are thousands of Logic users who love this program to death and we would all HATE to change horse. But an issue like this is outrageous and Apple WILL lose clients over it if they don't get it fixed. Yesterday is not a second too soon!

 

It's totally unacceptable and I refuse to believe for one second that the old Emagic guys would have rested for a millisecond as long as they knew Steinberg was ahead of them on an important feature. They would have never let it happen to begin with...

 

I mix almost exclusively with hardware and I'm already talking to Steinberg who has sent me an "all access" dongle so I can check out all they can offer. That's how happy THEY would be to have guys like me as a client. I would just hate to let my whole Logic setup go but they can't stall this much longer as far as I'm concerned.

 

They may consider themselves a large company with many relations to take care of and a lot of details to consider and what not. Well, I'm busy at work too and I'm just about through waiting for them to get around to this when the other big companies all have it implemented for a looong time now.

 

How long do they think we'll sit and wait for the well to fill up before we get up and move to a well that already has water in it?

 

PS: Did i mention that I'm pretty pee'd off about this??

 

Well, my big hope is that they get it fixed soon so they're back on top and I can save time and effort and just plain work again!

Yes, working here.

 

Bought!.

I´m using the Latency detector and get something real strange.

I´m using the I/O plug in my output channel going out to my outboard stereo compressor and then back in.

 

The latency detector reports

 

Latency left channel is -1021 samples

Latency right channel is -2394 samples

 

How can this be?

I wish knew but I'm sure it's related to the overall problem.

 

Just a few days ago I found that using EZ-Drummers Multi mode AND EXS24 multi mode with the I/O plugin inserted (and with outputs selected in the plugin) creates a weird MIDI and or digital audio loop of some sort. Even if the I/O plugin is disabled!

 

There's something really really wrong going on. I'm sure that's related to this whole issue as well.

 

Where the heck is our updates???

this is happening to me as well.. it looks to be a bug. Ableton Live works perfect.

Anybody knows if the pesky latency issues with the I/O plugin has been fixed in 9?

Anybody knows if the pesky latency issues with the I/O plugin has been fixed in 9?

 

This post may help you out:

http://www.logicprohelp.com/viewtopic.php?t=41101